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Monday, October 20, 2014

A Giyores that the Voyeur' Rebbi Converted, Speaks Up!

A bill of rights for Jewish converts

BETHANY S. MANDEL OCTOBER 20, 2014, 2:51 PM
​ [Israel Time]​


I am one of Rabbi Barry Freundel’s converts. He was my sponsoring rabbi and is the first signature on my RCA conversion documents. For a long time, I’ve been angry about my conversion, conversion in general and how I have been treated in the Jewish community post-conversion. I’ve been hesitant to speak out because I was afraid of rocking the boat, which holds not only myself, but also my husband and child(ren). Given this scandal, which has rocked my whole world, including my conversion boat, I’m no longer afraid to speak my mind.

Much of what is written about conversion is from the perspective of born-Jews and rabbis. Few converts are willing to speak out. We are afraid. We are victimized. We are threatened and judged. Which is why I’ve decided to make for myself and other converts a Bill of Rights. These are the things I deserved during my conversion and deserve now, afterwards, but have been too afraid to demand.

1. Converts are in a state of persistent limbo. During the process we are never told how long it can or should take. We cannot get married if we are dating, we cannot date if we are single. We lose control over the most important choices in our lives and hand them over to men with whom we are unfamiliar for an indeterminate amount of time. I was unable to give a new job a start date, to give my former job proper notice, sign a lease on a new apartment or set a wedding date because I was kept in the dark about how much longer my conversion could possibly take. Days? Weeks? Months? A year? Several? This is psychological torture. A rough estimate and a clear plan for how to move forward to get to the finish line, the mikvah, is the least that a convert deserves.

2. We have no safe governing body or individual to turn to if we feel as we have been victimized, manipulated or lied to by our rabbis. The RCA is not this body.

3. The reasonable costs associated with conversion should be clearly laid out from the outset. This is a complaint I have heard many times, though thankfully not from my converting Beit Din. Conversion candidates well into the process, after having invested a significant amount of time with a Beit Din, have been told about mandatory fees in the thousands of dollars they were unaware of at the outset of their work with a group of rabbis.

4. Communities have welcoming committees for Jews who move to the area but nothing in place for converts in the process. In order to convert many individuals have to leave their
homes and move to strange towns or cities. They are left to eat Shabbat meals alone, isolated from the social groups that born Jews form via their families, camps, schools and youth groups. Welcome the ger, even before they become a ger. This obligation stands for both communities on the whole, and for rabbis. I do not know a single convert who, after finishing the process, did not have trust issues with rabbis after the treatment they received during their conversion. My conversion personally taught me to be fearful and wary of rabbis, and given the situation that has transpired with my conversion rabbi, that personal wariness has been validated this week. Rabbis should be aware of the damage that the process does to the spiritual and emotional health of their congregants during conversion and take special care to rebuild rabbinic trust and relationships with those among them that went through a conversion process.

5. Converts are constantly asked to discuss extremely personal questions by strangers in social settings. We are not aliens from another planet. Most converts, including myself, try to avoid mentioning my status at any cost to strangers at meals, parties and events in order to prevent these sorts of intrusions into our personal lives and choices. So no, random person across a 15-person Shabbat lunch table, I don’t want to yell over the din of conversation my personal spiritual journey. I refuse to even entertain this conversation from now going forward. It’s an invasion of my privacy for the sake of someone else’s curiosity.

6. Help us with matters of Jewish ritual. This falls on rabbis and community members alike. When a convert gets married, makes a bris or bar mitzvah for their sons, we are flying blind. We have no mother to call to ask how things are done (though I am personally blessed with an incredible mother-in-law). If you know a convert about to go through a significant life change, ask them if they need help. If a congregational rabbi knows a member of their community is about to make a wedding, bris or bar mitzvah, offer to help not only with logistics and halachic advice on how it is done properly, but also with suggestions how non-Jewish family could be included in some way if they choose to be. We should not have to ask with fear how a parent or sibling could participate in our wedding in a meaningful way.

7. If converts are expected to provide their “papers” proving their Jewishness for a school, synagogue, or wedding ask born Jews for the same. I will never again provide my documentation until my husband is also asked to provide a photo of his parents’ ketubah or a photo of a gravestone of an ancestor.

8. The conversion process for those of Jewish heritage should be accelerated and unique. I was born to a Jewish father and was raised Reform. I didn’t know I wasn’t halachically Jewish until a college Birthright trip (thank you to my tour guide who gently explained that inconvenient truth to me). While in the process I was treated with the same unacceptable dismissiveness and disdain afforded to girls who were converting for marriage. Intermarriage is the biggest threat to Jewish life in America. Help those of patrilineal descent, many of whom try to convert Orthodox, correct the mistakes of their fathers. They should be welcomed back into the Jewish people, not turned away like mutts at a dog show.

9. Converts deserve to be treated with the same love and care as Jewish orphans from the moment we become Jewish. We are given new names, we become the sons and daughters of Avraham, the patriarch, who is no longer with us. We are asked to renounce our families in many ways. My deceased father, a born Jew, is not listed as my father on my
ketubah. Even I, as a patrilineal Jew, have given up a great deal of my relationship with my Jewish family to become Orthodox. I can no longer spend holidays with my family, I can no longer eat their food. Immediately after conversion, I married into a wonderful family with whom I can do this, but I will never again sit at my aunt’s Passover table and hear my uncle complain about the length of the Haggadah, and that brings me much sadness. Jews who enter this people as adults without a significant other, as I did, have even less. They spend Shabbats alone, they scrounge for holiday invitations, they receive the absolute worst shidduch recommendations for potential marriage partners, if they receive them at all. A corporate lawyer does not deserve to be constantly matched with the likes of a janitor just because he happens to be another black convert (yes, this happened to a friend on a serial basis). There is no group in the United States or Israel (that I am aware of) whose sole mission is supporting converts acclimation into the Jewish community after their conversion. A fraction of the money spent doing kiruv could be set aside for a project of this nature. A convert may not be a born Jew, but we are still Jews in need of outreach and support.

10. We should not have to live in fear about the status of our conversions in perpetuity. I should not be afraid that the actions of a rabbi on my Beit Din could mean my conversion won’t be universally respected somewhere down the line. My first instinct hearing reports of Rabbi Freundel’s improprieties after shock was fear. Fear for my status, fear for what it would mean for my daughter and unborn child. I have lived an Orthodox Jewish life since the moment I emerged from the mikvah. I should not have to be afraid of how the actions of others who I have no control over (but who at one time yielded plenty of control over me) could affect myself or my children. I have no indication that my conversion is in any way jeopardized at this moment, and I have asked around plenty to ascertain if there is (I want to make that crystal clear for other Freundel converts). Yet, I live in the real world where I have seen this happen too many times already.

43 comments:

Anonymous said...

Then stay a goy. Problem solved

Anonymous said...

8;28. You're a big jerk.She has more yiddishkeit in her pinky than you have in your milah.

Anonymous said...

You should see her video

Anonymous said...

There is a problem with Bethany Mandel & her rant. It's that she does not have orthodox hashkofos, does not hang in normative orthodox circles and therefore I even wonder if she has an orthodox gerus with 100% kabolas mitzvos.

http://www.mtsinaishul.com/dena-block.html

She goes to this shul with it's "yoetzet halacha", code word for female posek.

http://www.ostt.org/Maharat_Ruth.php

She is friends with this heretical "Maharat", the title that Avi Weiss gives to women rabbis because if he actually calls them them rabbis, the RCA hypocrites will revoke his membership.

Bethany's suggestion in her point # 8 goes against halacha. We are not allowed to do kiruv on non-Jewish children of intermarrieds. That is a Reform-Conservative ideal.

Anonymous said...

I have a rebuttal for each complaint but words are cheap. Why let bad people deprive you from a relationship with God or the Jewish faith?
We have rules laws and tradition and when it comes to converting that's should be the main emphasis. It's HARD DIFFICULT and a culture that you may never end up understanding. If this message was not given to you then we are truly sorry and Your conversion may be invalid. Now you have to make a new choice do you still want to be a Jew? If yes I recommend you contact a Rabbi who has Never compromised in tradition meaning ultra orthodox or ultra ultra. If your not interested in going for the full throttle and want to bring along your past ways of thinking then Jewdesim ain't for you. Try christianty they compromised a lot more they even changed the whole bible around it's called the new testiment.
Back to my original statement about bad people. they don't have any control on you unless you let them. Now you know always do research and don't stop researching even when you're comfortable and that's for anything in life. It gives you the opportunity to reach your full potential. Plus whatever happened to you was gods will embrace it don't fight it.
GOOD LUCK.

Anonymous said...

9;11 and 3;52 , just because you don't like Weiss and cll him heretical doesn't mean she doesn't want to be orthodox. Maybe she should have gone to another rabbi, but if she has a need to be orthodox you should show her the way instead of throwing out like a dog. I don't take your word that it goes against halacha, which halacha are you talking about? There are no rules about converting except asking and interviewing the convert and then ascertaining.You're making up rules . You don't have the facts and never spoke to her.So it's cruel to tell her to go back where she came from.

Anonymous said...

(Shuchan Aruch) rules (Yoreh Deah 268:2) that when a non-Jew comes before a rabbi and requests to convert, the rabbi must say to him: Why do you want to convert? Don't you realize how much the Jewish people suffer in this world? Are you not aware that anti-Semites persecute us and try to destroy us?
He is taught the fundamentals of Jewish faith, the prohibition against idolatry, and a number of other laws. Then he is told, "You should know that so long as you are not Jewish it is permissible for you to labor on the Sabbath and to eat pork or other non-kosher animals. When you convert, however, all of these things become forbidden, and if you violate the Torah you will be punished." If he agrees and accepts this upon himself, he is converted.
A third non-Jew came to Shammai the Elder and said, "I would like you to convert me on the condition that I be able to wear the clothes of the High Priest." Shammai the Elder immediately pushed him away, for a convert cannot become a Priest. (This is obvious. Shammai thought the potential convert's desire to “wear the clothes of the High Priest” was an indication of a personality tending toward extreme piety, and that was undesirable in a convert or any other Jew.)


The same person came to Hillel and said to him, "I would like you to convert me on condition that I be able to wear the clothes of the High Priest," and Hillel accepted him and converted him.
Yet the law says if a non-Jew is not ready to accept upon himself all of the commandments, it is forbidden to convert him. How, then, did Hillel convert the second non-Jew who only agreed to fulfill the written Torah? How did Hillel accept the third person who wished to convert on condition that he be allowed to wear the clothes of the High Priest? After all, it is forbidden for any non-Kohen Jew, including a convert, to wear the clothes of the High Priest.
Hillel understood that these three different non-Jews had pure and good intentions, and only lacked the ability to express themselves in a fitting manner. He was certain that when it came down to it, they would continue to learn Torah and fulfill all of the commandments (Tosafot, Yevamot 109b, s.v. "Rah").
From here we learn that it is unnecessary to learn all of the Torah's laws before converting; it is sufficient that the rabbinic court reach the conclusion that a convert earnestly intends to join the Jewish people and accept upon himself the Yoke of the Torah (Beit Yosef 268, end).
The sages teach (Shabbat 31a) that years later these three converts happen to be together in one place, and they said, "In his strictness, Shammai sought to drive us out of the world; in his humility, Hillel brought us under the wings of the Divine Presence."
However, this is a very difficult decision for the rabbinic court to reach. If the prospective convert is sincere in his intention to keep the commandments but the rabbinic court suspects him of being insincere, the court causes great damage to both the Jewish people and the convert, and is punished for this.
(This was the case, for example, when our forefathers refused to accept Timna. She eventually distanced herself greatly from the Jewish people, marrying Elifaz and giving birth to Amalek, who grieved the Jewish people greatly. Sanhedrin 99b)
If a rabbinic court accepts somebody who does not intend to keep the commandments, they may cause great damage to the Jewish people. (This is false. Great harm only occurs to the Jewish people when a rabbinic court doesn't accept someone. The Talmud says Jews suffered the great damage of being enslaved in Egypt because Abraham failed to give some non-Jews an opportunity to convert. (Neddarim 32a) See also Sanhedrin 99b above about Amalek.

Anonymous said...

People have every right to wonder if converts through the Avi Weiss crowd were mekabel mitzvos being that the Avi Weiss crowd does not require 100% kabolas mitzvos and the Avi Weiss crowd advocates heresy.

It is forbidden to do kiruv on goyim according to all the halacha seforim who deal with the question.

The Amalek probem was because not just Avrohom wouldn't be megayer mother Timna since she was rotten to core and that is beis din's duty, but because he refused to have anything to do with her, even look at her.

So stop with your Leftist propaganda to water down gerus standards that comes from Avi Weiss / Seth Farber / Conservative types.

M. Koplen said...

Excellent article from which we can all learn. I certainly am more aware now and more sympathetic to the problems encountered by converts. It is a shame that some take advantage of the convert's vulnerability and sincerity. I will try to be more sensitive going forward, having read this.

Anonymous said...

9;13,
All haalacha sefarim? Show one.
You and Talmud apparently disagree on Timna. Can you pinpoint a heresy from the Weiss crowd with evidence? You throw garbage and throw Beth out with it.Your problem isn't with Weiss, it's apparently any convert.Admit it

Anonymous said...

9:13,
Don't be so arrogant, you don't know it all, plus nobody says to accept everybody at first sight, but investigate for sure.

the Gemara explains what lesson flows from these verses:

Timna was a princess, as it says, "The aluph of Lotan, the aluph of Timan." Every mention of aluph is a king without a crown. She wanted to convert. She came to Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov and they did not accept her. She went and was a concubine to Eliphaz the son of Esav. She said: It is better to be a maidservant to this nation than to be a noblewoman to another nation. Amalek descended from her, who caused Israel suffering. What was the reason? Because they should not have pushed her away.

Anonymous said...

Wrong!

I love gerim (but only the real ones) and have fought to protect them from discrimination & other hurtful behavior.

I can't believe that anyone could really be that ignorant to not know about YCT heresy.

They say Sefer Devarim was written by the "Deuteronomic prophet" and not Hashem. They accept positions of Conservative, Reform & Reconstructionist.

The Gemara does not say Timna was not converted, but that she was PUSHED AWAY. Beis Din always has a right to deny a convert who is inappropriate. PUSHING AWAY is something else. I heard this over 25 years ago from a rosh yeshiva in Israel.

Anonymous said...

2;58
In your last paragraph you're trying to do a Houdini and trying to fortify your trick with some unnamed rosh yeshiva.
You're stuck in the mud as the front tire spins. Malarkey, but nice try.

Anonymous said...

Authorship of Devarim has been discussed by holy sages years and years ago, not by Reform or Conservatives .Abarbanel for one, discusses this issue at great length and openly. Abarbanel was orthodox in case you didn't know.

Anonymous said...

Rav Hershel Schechter writes in his sefer on Rav Soloveitchik that the Rav considered someone (Rackman) a heretic for his opinion on who wrote Sefer Yeshaya and he therefore should never be Chancellor of YU, and added in response to someone's question that he would never allow Abarbanel to be Chancellor either due to some strange things in his seforim.

One Acharon even accused Abarbanel of plagiarizing from the Roman priest Jerome son of Eusibius.

Rav Ruderman did not allow Abarbanel's seforim in Ner Yisroel's beais medrash.

But as far as Torah authorship, where does Abarbanel ascribe to a prophet? If anything Abarbanel actually attacked 2 other Rishonim who he felt made such a claim. (There is much later discussion that Abarbanel may have misunderstood what they were actually saying)

Anonymous said...

Ruderman should be ashamed of himself, and you too for writing it.So you mention your rabbi idols and I'll find someone who won't like him either so let's go back and forth. Should we start with Rav Soloveitchik and what mainstream rabbis had to say about him.? Point being that Devorim is an issue for hundreds of years whether you like it or not, as is authorship of some Tanach books.
Using other rabbis' names to back your point won't change facts.

ANDREW said...

This is a precious Jewish neshama and her concerns are real and come from her heart.

So many of the comments posted here are ... scary. It would make me question your yichus hearing such cold-hearted drivel.

Rechnitzer said...

This is not about Abarbanel who could very well be "swell"

This is about Avi Weiss's prized disciples Nati Helfgott & Zev Farber who, YCT dayanim who head Avi Weiss's Vaad Hagiyur.

Helfgott-Farber go way beyond what any opinion has to say about Devarim and the entire Torah itself.

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2013/07/21/torah-min-hashamayim-a-reply-to-rabbi-nati-helfgot/#ixzz2ZoO6V0Sm

Here is the modern orthodox OU slamming Helfgott-Farber for being kofer in the Avos, Yetzias Mitzrayim and Mattan Torah, Torah having been dictated by God to Moshe or any prophet, the perfection of Torah as God’s Word, and the authenticity of Torah She-b’al Peh as Mosaic. Rather, Farber’s position is one of belief in a divinely-inspired Torah that is the work of man, the sole words of man, has faults, and has no historical veracity. Farber denies the concept of prophecy as God speaking to man, and he likewise denies any literal Divine authorship of the Torah, whether Written or Oral. This is way beyond the boundaries of even the remotest claim of somehow still being within Orthodox Judaism.

Now you can whine all you want about the improper gerim who hold these beliefs but the bottom line is they will never be accepted by Klal Yisroel because with such beliefs they never received a Yiddishe neshoma. And the fringe "orthodox" heretics in Riverdale are to blame for duping & victimizing their conversion candidates.

Issur kiruv on non-Jewish kids of intermarrieds said...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_w3ipkL1Dd10/RrxRtrqnP-I/AAAAAAAAAAM/mSh6DBNFMpE/s1600-h/Rav+Sternbuch+-+kiruv+for+non+Jew+Aug+2007+Heb.jpg

Rav Sternbuch thinks it might even be an issur d'Oraysah

No one can knock Rav Sternbuch in other matters either as he has been perhaps the most pro-active adam gadol to fight against molesters

Issur kiruv on non-Jewish kids of intermarrieds said...

Aruch HaShulchan (Yoreh Deah 268:6): One should not try to actively encourage any non-Jew to convert. In fact we should discourage conversion as we see in Yevamos (47a)

Yevamos 109b: R’ Yitzchok said what is the meaning of Mishlei (11:15): He that is a surety for a stranger will suffer for it? That means evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts...That those who accept converts bring evil upon themselves is learned from R’ Chelbo who said: Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore on the skin...Tosfos (Yevamos 109b): Evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts – The Ri explained that that is only when the non‑Jews are proselytized to convert or they are accepted prematurely before they are ready..."

Life imitates the Cartoons said...

"Ruderman should be ashamed of himself"

Did everyone else like me feel that huge rush of air like was portrayed on The Flintstones when that incredibly arrogant GASS RUACH belched out that command to Rav Ruderman who is beyond the grave?

Who do you think YOU are?

Rav Ruderman was a known iluy before he arrived in Slabodka. He knew every sefer accessible in print. And he was a humble man, in stark contrast to you.

Anonymous said...

Hay it's me 3:52 how do you know what I wrote. From your reply it seems you're blind. I didn't tell her to go anywhere. I simply wrote becoming jewish is difficult because you have to leave your past behind. On the contrary I stated that she be very diligent in her research even if she's comfortable she should continue to research. Marbe Aitsa Marbe Dass.

Anonymous said...

1 she didn't go to an one who close to our sages let alone a jew who unfortunately fell from the Torah path (may he do teshuva soon).
2 I doubt any jew these days would be accountable for discouraging some one. We are so far from any ruach hakedusha.
3 as you opened your comment with the Shilchan Aruch the rabbi must convey it's very difficult to be a Jew. That's where you should of stopped.
If she still interested I'm reminding her of her choice to accept the challenge. Not complain BUT COMPLY.

Anonymous said...

Well put Thank You.

Anonymous said...

Yeah but what was his conclusion. Ya putz.

Anonymous said...

Just for the statement rabbi idols shows you're a heretic or bal taivah. On must have faith in rabbis as the Torah says KOL ASHER YORUCHA.
You can say call us whatever you want we ain't changing. We are proud of our heritage and won't stand for any rosie new age b.s.

Avi Keslinger said...

1. It is impossible to state because it depends on the individual's progress. Converting a person who is not ready is, in fact, a spiritual danger for him as there is no turning back. If Shabbat or kashrut or some other mitzva specific to Jews is too difficult for him it's tough. On the other hand, a Ben Noach who decides to keep kosher but finds it hard to refuse invitations to family meals can go back.


2. I do not understand this. If they are members of the RCA then the RCA should have the power to discipline them.


3. I agree so far as is possible in light of #1.


4. From the point of view of the community a convert "in the process" is a dilemma. On the one hand, as you wrote, there is a mitzva to love the ger but on the other hand his conversion should not be for extraneous reasons such as wanting to be part of a community.


5. In Israel at least even people who were born Jewish are asked all kinds of personal questions. I have been asked if my parents were observant as well as various other prying questions.


6. This is also true of BTs. Perhaps a BT community (and there are such communitiies) would be more appropriate for a ger.


7. In Israel we are. I would imagine that today the situation is also true in America, especially regarding BTs.


8. According to Kabbala there is a special objective to bring back "zera Yisrael" but according to Halcha there is no difference. In fact, Rav Amar, who was recently elected Sephardi rav of Yerushalayim has worked with Bnei Anoosim (descendants of Jews who outwardly converted to Catholicism during the Inquisition but secretly kept various customs).


9. This is also true of BTs although we are are parents halachic children. As for the corporate lawyer and janitor, some would say that the latter does more for society.


10. I agree. However, the door must swing both ways. I knew someone who married a giuret and she decided to go back when the Intifada heated up.

No Bee Tea said...

"Perhaps a BT community would be more appropriate for a ger."

Don't even think about it.

BTs are ignorant and therefore have much less appreciation of gerim than learned people, not that there aren't some ignorant FFBs too. True appreciation of gerim only comes from knowing what the seforim say about them.

Many BTs use gerim as punching bags due to a BT inferiority complex where they think gerim are on an even lower level than BTs.

I have heard many horror stories of what was done to gerim in BT communities.

At a packed Shabbos table comprised of several families & singles, some jerk BT decides to play darshan out of his rear end. He tells a ger out loud that hey, the nusach of kiddush puts ger on a lower level than animals. The jerk was also factually incorrect as ger in kiddush does not mean that kind of ger.

A giyoress during a group conversation about shidduchim expressed the desire to marry a ben Torah who learned in yeshiva. A woman huffs at her in disgust that she will never be good enough for a yeshiva grad. (The giyoress in short order was gifted with a musmach of an adam gadol while the foul mouthed woman in the years since then is ripping her hair out of head with her own kids' shidduchim problems.)

Some heimishe people are also nasty to gerim, either because they are also huge am haaratzim or because one Hungarian posek has some nasty things to say about gerim. He does end off saying to still be nice to gerim but the damage was already done. All the gedolim disagree with him. That posek is known for protecting pedophiles and saying other weird things. One of the gedolim of the previous dor once wrote him a letter to talk him out of one of his misguided agendas that was hurting innocent people, but the effort failed.

Gerim do best in a yeshivishe community.

Anonymous said...

to 9;40,1) The main reason for golus is that we should attract gerim.2) Good goyim will be held accountable why they didn't convert if they held that Jewish religioin was beautiful. These 2 statements predate your shulchan aruch.

Anonymous said...

Amram Blau of Neturei Karte with a former actress convert. Mmmm

Anonymous said...

another reason why G-d created
the galut is to bring in converts (i.e. that the only way that individual
gentiles can possibly recognize the G-d of Israel, is by way of seeing the
Jewish people in action, on a close up basis, and that was only possible by
them living in their countries;

the Ohr Hachayim and others express this
idea of the Jews bringing up the fallen sparks of the nations as a reason
why G-d sent the Jews into galus).

We most definitely do want gerim. In fact Chazal have said, “לא גלו ישראל בין האומות אלא להתווסף עליהם גרים”– Israel went into exile amongst the nations only to add on to them gerim. In Bamidbar Rabba, parshas naso, there are many pages written about how much Hashem wants gerim.

Why then did Chzal say that gerim are as hard on Israel as an unwanted (possibly malignant) growth? And why do we try to discourage gerim, if Hashem sent us into galus to bring in gerim?

When there are seemingly contradictory statements in Chazal it is because one statement applies to one type of situation, and the other statement applies to a different type of situation. Here, the answer is that there are different types of gerim. The Ari z”l said that Chazal’s statement “gerim are as hard on Israel as a superfluous growth” is referring to those who converted for ulterior motives, such as the erev rav. The erev rav who left Egypt together with am Yisrael did so because Egypt was a waste land and Moshe Rabeinu promised to lead them to a land of milk and honey. Who wouldn’t want to leave the losers and stay with the winners? The erev rav even agreed to accept the Torah together with am Yisrael in order to gain material benefits and be part of the favored nation. But they were not really interested in the Torah at all, that was just a means for them to achieve material comfort, and they caused very much harm. They were the ones who instigated the egel hazahav and other major sins.

Anonymous said...



Questions in Hashkafa********

Unfortunately not everyone relates to converts with the love and respect Hashem wants them to have. The gemmara (Yuma 71b) tells us that a kohen gadol went out from the Beis HaMidkosh and all the people followed him, but when the people saw Shmaya and Avtalyon who were the Torah leaders of the generation, the crowds left the kohen gadol to accompany them. Shmaya and Avtalyon were the sons of gerim. The Kohen gadol said to them, “May the sons of the nations go in peace”. This was a terrible thing to say because he meant to insult them for their non Jewish ancestry. Shamay and Avtalyon answered him, “The sons of the nations will go in peace, for they do as Aharon did, but the son of Aharon will not go in peace, for he does not do as Aharon did”.

We read about Rus on Shavu’os to teach us not to be like that kohen gadol. Chazal wanted to make it clear that although we say “ata vichartanu” – You chose us – this is not meant to keep out others who also wish to serve Hashem. On the contrary, Hashem wants us to bring the entire world back to Him, and any person who sincerely wants to be good is welcomed and respected. That is one of the lessons of Rus.

Anonymous said...

"These 2 statements predate your shulchan aruch"

So? The Shulchan Aruch is the canon of Jewish law.

Although the literal transalation you provide for "golus is attract gerim" is true, this has nothing to do with improper gerim which you yourself seem to agree on.

So who are you arguing with?

Salted Pretzel said...

"Hashem wants us to bring the entire world back to Him"

Do you make this stuff up or did you cut & paste that from some krum, Leftist, touchy-feely rabbi?

It is absolutely forbidden to do kiruv on goyim.

Even the Lubavitcher drive for 7 mitzvos is a meshugass.

Our job is to just behave like ehrliche Yidden & we will influence for the good. Otherwise like it says in Amida of Yamim Noraim, the majority of goyim (who merit to be saved) will be moved by bias goel and will come back at that time to form "agudah achas".

Anonymous said...

You're really a pretzel by caling Lubavitcher Rebbe's Torah meshugas.
A salted pretzel insulting the Rebbe .
So G-D didn't care about the generation of the Flood, Tower Generation who wanted to erase Him , Sedom or Nineveh if they went bad.This before there was a Torah. Then later translating it into 70 languages for all goyim to see.

Anonymous said...

Sanhedrin*****
Gentile who studies the Torah in order to understand and fulfill this universal path "is like a Kohen Gadol - a High Priest" (Sanhedrin 59a)
Avraham A veenu reached out to all to bring them close to G-D, but to a salted pretzel this would be meshugas.Instead , he was greated than Noach who only did for himself.

Salted Pretzel said...

You cannot compare what Hashem told the Neviyim to do in ancient times to what is our chiyuv now.

With all due respect to your dead Rebbe, no gedolim agree with him on outreach to goyim today. And the Brisker Rov said sharf und kurtz, nisht ken mitzva tzu zuchen mitzvos.

I don't care what Gemaras you bring. Sanhedrin 59 means that if they come to us we help educate them on their mitzvos.

And has it ever occured to you that none of Avraham Avinu's gerim remained Jewish? R' Yaakov Kaminetzky discusses it in his sefer.

Even Yisro quickly left the fold and it was almost immediately after being impressed by Yetzias Mitzrayim & Kriyas Yam Suf.

Anonymous said...

But your dead rebbes are ok.

Anonymous said...

You misunderstand our Rebbe. He didn't do outreach per se but felt it an obligation to teach non Jews about Mitzvot Bnai Noach which are incumbent upon them even today, because that's G-D's will even if it isn't yours.
Your other comments about the past are not valid because all someone can is try and only G-D can guarantee the outcome.

Anonymous said...

Lets not be busy whit making -gierim- or -bal thuves - I no personal. From a ger who has a scanar and is running to all ((chaptzins)) whit a camera and is watching close. If anybody like shomrim or any jew is heeding the perpertratar and he took of his yarmulka already. Ok-?? We should be busy. To bring back all children and bucherim who we. Yes we. Our Hasidic mosdos. Kicked them out of there mosdos. And because of that they had to go of the yidishe derech. And went to(( foot steps)) or to ((o.t.d.)) or to other organizations. To find love and keruv. ((What they didn't found in there own chasidisha community )) lets be busy. Whit bringing them back. Then we could be busy. By making ((gierim and bal thuves)) and all kind of people first lets be busy. With our garbage what we created all this years. Ok-??

Anonymous said...

Liar. Avi Weiss has no such vaad and Farber is the last lerson YCT would ever appoint to any bais din.

They have HUGE charatah about giving him semicha.

Yehuda said...

No Yeshiva educated Man Brisk Mir Lakwood would try to covert someone they love, because they know that there is no single judaism after the loss of the Holy temple, Only Zionism is the more prestigious body of judaism today, Religious Judaism is going the way of all religions today, with the advent of science bringing people out of the Unseen and unknown territory

Vehamvin yovin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnejgZ9nHSM

Anonymous said...

As a convert myself I cant say I agree with everything she says but I have experienced so much hate and discrimination its not funny.8 years after conversation I am still not getting set up by shaddachans and dont get me started on the nasty comments things need to change but they wont.13