"We Stand With Ukraine?"
No, we do not stand with Ukraine! Yes we stand with Ukrainian Jews, absolutely, but we don't "Stand with Ukraine"
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| Ukrainians Shooting Jewish Women & Children to death |
I am totally shocked to find frum "heimishe" Yidden on social media placing "We Stand with Ukraine memes" on their pages be it on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter!
Have we forgotten that the Ukrainians were worse than the Nazis?
The US State Department said on Wednesday that Putin has a "Hit List" of Ukrainians, well I hope that the list is very very long. I pray that Putin troops go from house to house and pulls out entire Ukrainian families and marches them to Babi Yar!
וינקום לעינינו נקמת דם עבדיו השפוך
I know what the problem is.. it is the lack of Holocaust studies in Frum Yeshivois. We children of survivors really didn't need any Holocaust Studies, we lived it on a daily basis. We lived in neighborhoods that were inhabited totally 100% by survivors. But our children need to study this!
I remember when survivors were begging the Rabbanim to make Holocaust Studies a curriculum in the yeshivois, the Rabbanim would say "Holocaust Studies and Museums" are for the Reform & Conservative Jews, we frum people have the Torah, that is our revenge." The gemarrah is our "Museum!"
These Rabbanim never encouraged any of their students and followers to visit Yad Ve'Shem, saying "Yad Ve'shem doesn't give the frum point of view!."
Frum point of view? What?????
Frum Jews have another point of view of Nazis killing all types of Jews? The Nazis shoved Zionists and Satmerers in the same oven! You think that a Nazi cared if the Jew wore a gartel or had a "chup?"
You want a "frum point of view?" Then put your version of Holocaust Studies in Yeshiva curriculums!
It is that attitude that has Frum Jews feeling bad for the descendants of these murderers! I saw on a Yiddish chat on WhatsApp just this Friday a Frum Naive Chassidishe Jew who is now in Ukraine say that "we have to help our goyishe neighbors, they are so nice"
The Ukrainians that grabbed this Jew in the Photo below, were also very nice.They murdered him after torturing him!
It is Rabbanim who never learned what really happened to us just 75 years ago that encouraged the Jews of Ukraine to remain, never having learned about the "gedoilim" that advised Jews to remain in Europe even while Hitler ym"s was nipping at their heels.
It won't be very long when books will come out denying that these Rabbanim ever said that, just like they deny that the pre-war Gedoilim ever said that their followers should remain in Europe! What sheer Chutzpah! Even while there are still Holocaust survivors around, books have come out saying that Rabbanim never advised them to stay!
I was recently talking to a reader of DIN who reached out to me and who doesn't agree with me 99% of the time, and he remarked to me that it "isn't true that Rabbanim told their followers to remain in Europe." This guy is a very learned man and "a seeker of the truth" and he is telling me, a child of survivors who heard this about the pre-war Rabbanim, straight from the mouths of the survivors, that it isn't true, even though he and his entire family are Yankees going up to George Washington, and were in the USA while my grandparents were being murdered!
Chassidishe Jews have made an entire industry fixing up Cemeteries and building Shuls in the Ukraine. Plane loads of frum Jews now fly on a weekly basis and spend millions of Jewish dollars in Ukraine, Poland, Hungary and Rumania.. Ukraine's filthy earth is soaked with Jewish blood, yet Jews will spend their hard earned money to go visit a country that murdered their grandparents. Just last month, a Rebbe, "Christened" a shul in Szegid! I say "Christened" because I couldn't find a better word in the English lexicon.
G-d forbid they should visit the graves of Avraham, Yitzchok, Yaakov, Sarah, Rivka and Leah! Rachel, our mother lies in Beis Lechem crying for her children to come home, but her tears are all in vain as her children are by R' Shayele Krastirer z"l, buried in a town that murdered all its Jews. Abaye and Rava, Rav Ama and Rav Asa, R' Chiya and his children are all lying there lonely while the Jewish people are busy financing the economies of people that hate them!
G-d forbid that they go up to Har Herzl where thousands of Jewish Soldiers are buried, most of them, teenagers that gave their lives for the Jewish people. I wonder how many of those who go to the graves of R' Shayele, the Baal Shem Tov etc ever even thought of visiting their brothers and sisters who sacrificed their young lives so that Jews can have a country for them to run to when they will be thrown out of their countries!
Frum Jews sincerely believe that everything that occurs in the world has something to do with Jews.
I am not a prophet nor am I a son of a prophet but I can tell you that Hashem doesn't want any Jews visiting any cemeteries in Europe. Hashem want Jews to come home and if you can't then at least come to the Mekoimos Hakdoishim in Eretz Yisrael. R' Shayele doesn't want you to visit him, he wants you in Israel!
I hope Putin when he is done with Ukraine, marches into Poland, Hungary, Romania!
Are you crazy? Oh! You want Russia to dominate Europe and the world?
I don't care about the world, the world never cared about us!
Good luck Putin. here is at least one Jew that wishes you Hatzlacha!
Am I the only one thinking like this?
62 comments:
After you calm down please don't change the above.
Hopefully by the time Russia gets to France the Jews would have got the hint and fled to Israel.
Meanwhile in NY the African Americans are ramping up the attacks
https://abc7ny-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/abc7ny.com/amp/hammer-attack-subway-brutal-robbery-woman-new-york/11598857/?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16459077171878&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fabc7ny.com%2Fhammer-attack-subway-brutal-robbery-woman-new-york%2F11598857%2F
100% !!
DIN please stop showing pictures of yourself murdering the Jewish people daily with your sick hate.
Its one thing for Ukrainian's to murder Jews, but for someone who calls himself a Jew (yes, we know your a mamzar, well leave that aside) to murder and torture Jews all day on this sick blog, uch I wanna throw up..
DIN, you are not alone is your way of thinking.
Here we see how Hashem takes revenge on these murderer's "Shileshim ve Ribeim" (grandchildren and great grand children).
The longer it takes Putin, the better.
And not so BTW, Zilenski's refusal to divulge Biden's family's bribery politics in the Ukraine was Zelenski's undoing.
He was clearly out of his depth.
If you are heading a buffer nation like Ukraine, you got to play your cards right.
He is paying noe for the Biden's crime family's debts.
While you are right about the barbaric atrocities the ukrainians committed agains the jews in world war 2 when they were sadistic not less than the nazis and were only too happy to do the job for the nazis, see babi yar etc etc i have to fiercly protest your lack of respect for prewat gedoylim in poland etc alleging they told everyone NOT to leave. Its a massive lck of emunas chachimim which is one of the foundation in judaism. Not that i think you are right on the facts at all , to the contrary plenty of gedoilim actually encoureged to leave to Israel, such as the chofetz chaim, the imrei emes etc. Others did not voice their opinion absout this for good reason. Rabbi Dessler zatzal has a whole article about this exact matter in his sefer and admonishes someone who wrote to him a letter with exactly tour claim about gedoilim who didnt tell the yiddne to leave to israel!! Elokim nitzav beadas Kel is a xore foundstion. Whenever gedoilim make decisions its hasem guiding them. There wa sno guarsntee either that Hitler eouldnt invade eretz yisroel then! In fscthe eas 24 hours away and general Rommel only because of open miracles was forced to retract from his invasion plan on eretz yisroel too!!
Bottom line, you ar eplaying you know it all and are questioning gedolei hador, major lack in emunas chchimim shen the tlrah tells us to follow thrm evrn if you dont understsnd and when they tell you on right left etc, so that you are basically questioning Hashem! Big shame on you! No wonder you dismiss then also all huge tzadikim burried in europ who people come to pray on their graves for good reasons and see yeshuos. It doesnt negate their visits of kivrei tzadikim in israel! Ma inyan shmitta...? Besides the fact that in this merit, those kevorim are kept intact and not vandalized and neglected, as the non jews know you cant desecrate them because jews keep coming to check on them!
So you are totally wrong on all of your claims! You have a very twisted, and not a torahdige haskafa at all.
And by the way holocaust is studied in frum places but the mesirus nefesh part of it where lessons can be learned, unfortunatly its not in yad vesehem. That is the reason why the kaliver Rebbe zatza"l opened up his yidishe yad veshem and "ginzech kidush hashem", to document gadlus and mesirus nefesh of the kedoishim in the holocaust!
And by the way, i mam not taking away from people killed in israle wars and anyone killed because he is a jew if he was a shomer shabbis dued alkidush hashem and has a special place in shomayim, where do you come though compare ppl burri3d in har harzel to the baal shem tov, rav nachman , the berdicover etc etc?! Are you sane??
And your wish for invasion is terrible.dont you know that whenever ther eis war jews suffer too!
And those murdereres deserve death and by nie most probabaly they are all dead anyhoe and only Hashem cna avenge the blood they spilled, innocent children even if they are non jews should not be killed. There is a chiyuv of timche es zecher amalek only.
To Unknown 5:28 AM
Thank you!
I wanted to write a response point by point, but then I saw yours. You did it very well, better than I would have done.
The more Putin is encouraged to go veiter in his megalomania provides encouragement for China to invade Taiwan & beyond, North Korea to get out of control, and for the mad dog mullahs of Iran to attack Eretz Yisroel & beyond.
Come to think of it, isn't that exactly what DIN is trying to prevent, unlike Kapos like Fat Jerrold & Fart-Brain Friedlander?
To Unknown
AHHHHH where do I begin
I will go out on a limb here and say that you are a "baal teshuvah" whose family was bar-be-queing while my grandparents were being buried alive in Ukraine.
You bring up Rav Dessler z"l. With all due respect to Rav Dessler, he was safely ensconced in London and his entire family escaped and left unscathed while millions were being gassed. Kol Hakoved to him and his sefer admonishing an angry Holocaust survivor.
In my neighborhood in Queens was a Rebbele from Hungary who advised my wife's family to remain in Hungary while he and his entire family escaped to the USA. His shteebel was in an area of survivors, no one dared walk into his shul, he had only Americans.
Din actually has a lot of support from Gedoilim like Harav Teichtal HY"D, who writes that "gedoilim are ahsid leitein din ve'cheshbon"
The Kloizenberger Z'l who lost a wife and 11 children said many times in his Wednesday ChumashShiur that the "gedoilim of pre-war Europe know nothing and should have remained quiet!"
Interesting that you are upset that DIN compared the graves of the Chayalim to the graves of the Baal Shem Tov. The Baal Shem Tov would have agreed with DIN as he himself wanted so much to go to Israel.
Your nasty and evil comment that "anyone killed because he is a jew if he was a "shomer shabbis died alkidush hashem and has a special place in shomayim,"
What about the ones that killed al kiddush Hashem that were not Shomer Shabbos? What about those? You evil old man!
R' Moshe Feinstein z"l said that anyone who gets killed because of him being Jewish even if he wasn't a "Shomer shabbos" goes straight to Olam Habah!
You write
"Whenever gedoilim make decisions its Hashem guiding them. "
So are you saying that the Gedoilim of Ukraine that advised the Jews to remain had "Hashem guiding them?"
Then why are they now running to the Polish border?
Then you contradict yourself
"There were no guarantee either that Hitler wouldn't invade eretz yisroel then! In fact he was 24 hours away and general Rommel only because of open miracles was forced to retract from his invasion plan on eretz yisroel too!!"
Now with this comment you are being "mevazeh" the Gedoilim that "guaranteed" that Hitler would never come to Israel, and I'm talking about the Chazon Ish..
So which is it?
I'm glad you mentioned the Kaliver Rebbe because he went to Har Herzl every single year!
DIN you are not alone .
3:36
כל שפסל במימו פוסל
Unknown
Can you please post where we can find the letter of Rav Dessler zt"l that admonished someone for questioning the Gedoilim that advised the Jews to remain in Europe? Because if he indeed do that, I'm questioning everything that he wrote.
I know of several stories of prewar gedoilim who when asked what to do answered that they didn't know. A very humble answer. But today it seems that every shnook in feffer knows everything so well.
I don't get it! This is my first time on this blog and I read and reread this post and cannot for the life of me find anywhere that he in any way denigrated Gedoilim. He stated simple facts, that the Gedoilim in pre-war Europe by in large advised Jews to stay put, and the facts are that they discouraged Jews from going to America calling it the "treifene medinah" So how is this an attack on Gedoilim? What about the present day Gedoilim of Ukraine that encouraged Jews to stay in Ukraine? Now they are fleeing to Poland leaving behind most of the helpless Jews. The poster is 100% correct: they learned nothing! And should any Yid G-d be killed, the blood will be on these Rabbanim. There was enough time to flee. The Times of Israel reported that El-Al sent countless planes and they came back empty.The gemarrah predicted thousands of years ago that in the times of Moshiach there will be no leaders. We are witnessing that with our very own eyes, The leaders are the "askanim" who run the Gedoilim by their noses.
@Unknown ; I gotta comment ..
You wrote some questionable things. On this post I'm not going to discuss the pre-war rabbonim in Poland, Hungary and Lithuania who spoke against Aliyah, that's for another time.
1) Gedolim can make mistakes. Read Rav Teichtal, Rav Reinis , Rav Maimon ( L'maan Tziyon Lo Echshe ) Rav Eliezer Melamed in a brilliant analysis and others who discuss this without fear.... But why even go there ?.. Open the T'Nach. Korach was supported by the biggest gedolim and Sanhedrin.. The Meraglim were the biggest gedolim .. The gedolim fought against Dovid Hamelech from the get go. Most misinterpreted the posuk of not marrying a Moabite, and it got worse for him from there... Gedolei Hador were at the Bar Kamtza banquet and didn't protest the event , which led to the churban. The "left or right" what chachamim pasken refers only to specific halachos. Closer to our days , There were some whom you'd consider gedolim and their groupies who viciously attacked Rav Kook .
Gedolim must have siyata d'shmaya too.
Chofetz Chaim is an interesting case. Both pro and anti-Zionists use him for support. Fact is that he opposed Rav Reinis call to found Mizrachi, met him personally and didn't convince him. Later he was for Aliyah and apparently changed his mind at the end of his life.
Read Rav Reinis , Rav Kook , Rav Mohiliver , Rav Nissenbaum , and see the history of both opposition and support for leaving Europe and moving to EY way before 1940..
Rav Reinis and Rav Nissenbaum ( who was a top Mizrachi delegate) recount how on one hand the support among the Amcha Yidden and many rabbonim for emigration was great , and how the opposition carried on with propaganda , violence and libel against pro EY sentiments... How R' Reinis and others were chased from the bimas when they wished to speak ... R' Teichtal had the same experience.
I have several volumes of the Encyclopedia of Religious Zionism , which lists short bios of s-o-o-o-o-o-o-o many rabbonim , ordinary Yidden , even women who with mesiras nefesh gave themselves , money in some cases , travel, and Aliyah themselves .. whatever it took, to push for emigration starting in the 18oos. It's an eye opener. 90% of people have no idea about the popularity of Religious Zionism , nor can anybody even identify these individuals, because of a campaign over the last 80 years to delete and erase any vistage of tiny information about them. These books, which I own , is worth more to me than any lying bio book prominently displayed in the Judaica store windows....
the Derby... continued
... about leaving Europe and emigrating to EY. How they didn't want to see Yad Hashem in the Balfour Decl.
The world could've been different had more Jews been more enthusiastic and stood up , more rich ones donating greater sums . Montefiore wasn't enough. There was money but many chose not to give. So in the bitter end , the Germans and local collaborators took it all anyway.
Jews in America are seeing and not believing. Where are your gedolim ? Why aren't they alerting the flock that it's getting panic time? Who would've believed that mosdos Torah in Brooklyn would be racing to Tom's River, Passaic, Lakewood, Florida ... There aren't enough U-Hauls to get them out.
Here's a notice : Hashem is there also. You know the song... Hashem is here, tra-la-la etc... But you don't believe a word of it.
Get out .. Moshiach ain't coming to your local parks with donkey and microphone/ squealing sound system ) gathering yuzzz in to EY. That's not his role.
Finally : Sometimes when chazal are in doubt about a halacha, they say PUK CHAZZI .. Go out and see what people are doing as minhag as pasken from them.
I see regular awesome people making Aliyah ( absent Covid)... They are the PUK CHAZI... Guaranteed that when the DemonRats will shut your bank accounts , the rabbonim will be first in line to rush the damned planes out.
the Derby..... Mincha minyan at Gate 12 now,,,, mincha,,, mincha..
unknown
I don't know about R' Dessler, but I'll go back to something written 1,700 years before R' Dessler which is the gemarrah about Bar Kochba, the Tanaim suggest that R' Akiva who was Bar Kochba's staunch supporter, made a huge mistake. Don't forget R' Akiva was the Gadol and Tzaddik Hador.
If R'Akiva could make a mistake and the gemarrah is not afraid to say it, why can't we say that a Gadol made a mistake? The Ukranian Gedoilim certainly made a mistake.
Will Berke Lazar, chief shliach of Lubavitch for Russia, become chief shliach of the Rebbeh in Ukraine too if Russia takes over there?
Thanks DIN for sharing this important alternate perspective.
Those in the frum world connected to the internet - esp. the younger ones -are mostly just echoing and parroting the mass media line that sees Russia as bad, an evil goliath, and Ukraine as good, an underdog like David it seems. The reality is somewhat different and more complex than that, of course.
Ukraine is a very corrupt place. Russia has what to improve on too.
Thank G-d our families were able to escape those areas many years ago.
You lost your sanity completely if you ever had one in the first place and i doubt that!!
You obviously are NOT religious even if you may just pretend to be but are not!
First to your outragous claims as if i am a baal teshuva and therefore blah blah bla (i wish i would have been one) and thst i had no family murdered in the holocaus: so for your or for anyones information: that is a blatant lie! I had COUNTLESS family members murdered in auschwitz including 2 sets of great grand parents, many great uncles and aunts(8 pairs of uncles and aunts) with their entire families with little children, as well as a 94 grest great grandfather all gassed and brutally murdered! How dare you have such massive chutzpah !!
Second you are evidently secular in you haskafos! How dare you go agaisnt Rabni dessler who was a huge tzadik who miraculously escaped as Hashem needed him To establish torah in england and in ponoviz after the war!!
Therenis not a single jew in Europ who if survived miraculously didnt lose close family members !! You are meshuga for even bringing up such claims and accusations!dont you know whst the mishna in avos says: hizaher begachalosom...?! And hamevazeh talmideo chachomim eil lo chelek leolam haba .. so i hope tou better do teshubah if you have any belief in you about olam haemes...
Further proofs for you being secular and totally IGNORANT in jewish law and what the torah says: yes, only those who were shomer shabbos are guarantred gan eded if died in war! Its explicity stated so in jewish scriptures! NOT my invention! Shame on you!
Furthermore, your audacious lashing against gedolei hador will go against you! Close your dirty mouth! You are going agaisnt Hashem. Not sure i think youcare about it at all a syou are obviously not religious andnnot a mamin!
For anyone who wants to know more i advise to look into Rav Desler zatza"ls sefer michtav meeliyahu for a mindopening lesson about emunas chachamim! Rab dessler was a great grandson of rav yisroel salanter and was one of the most prestigious baal mussar in pre and post war jewry. A huge tzadik, serious true Oved Hashem who established the gateshead Kehilla, kolel girls seminary saving thousands of yidishe neshamos, and then wansmashgiach of the famous ponoviz yeshivah in beni brak.
The chazon ish zatza"l was in total synch with rav dessler and wht you allege is total rubish!
Thr Kaliver Rebbe was AGAINST yad vashem and thwrrfore opened his OWN documentary memorial!! So dont distort facts.
Honestly i dodnt even finsih reading your nonsense and absolute factual false allegetions as i had to stop in the middle to react to the pure lies you wrote which i couldnt stand idle without immidate response.
Shame on you for daring to speak about gedolei yisrole and for daring to distort facts and history .
Bottom line, war is bad. Revenge on sadistic ukraine murdereres during the holocuast a srhey sll died by now will be broight by Hashem alone.
Currently there are tens of thousands jewish lives in ukraune in danger as well aas lives of maby other innocent gentiles in dsnger and this war must be stopped immediatley!!
You are twisting around what i quoted! I never said that Rav Dessler advised people to stsy in Europ! To the contrary! I stated that many gedoylim did advise whoever can leave should leave such asnthe chofetz chaim, the imrei emes and more gedoilim!
What i quoted rav dessler on, was a letter he wrote in response to a letter someone sent him against gedoilim since as per claim of the letter writer to Rav dessler zatza"l, "the gedoilim did not tell yidden to leave" (NOT Rav Desller told anyone to stay in europ!He did not)
Rav Dessler admonished him strongly for the question and then answered him a whole response about emunas chachamim and whst happened was a gezeria and had to happen and whn gedoilim say something its Hashem talking as elokim nutzav beadas kel. He in fact bringsbup the whole parsha of Purim as an example of emunas chachomim we must have, which in itself brought the geula then, when the yidden finally believed mordechai that the gezera of haman was becasue of the misthe they participated in, and not because mordechai did not bow down to haman which enraged haman, which the yidden could have blamed mordecai only, for the gezarah, as dor any layperson ut seemd obvious thst the gezra of lehasmid leabed uleharog es kol hayehudim came as result of mordechais stubborness not to bow to haman... But instead they manifested emunas chachomim and beleived mordechai that it came about because of their participation in the misthe which occured 9 years earlier( who would have connected thw two mattwrs together?)! They made teshiva,sak veefer... fasted for 3 days and tht is why the gezera was cancelled!
We must know, not to question gedolim and not to lose emunas chachamim, which is a foundation in yidishkeit, and not to put our own 2 sense and question them, as per torah : even if they tell you on right left and on left right you must listen to them " as this is only wht it seems to you to be the case, but when they say say something lo tasuru min hadavar asher yagidu lecho, as elokim nitzav beadasel!
Some people are "oyberchachamim" and dont have the basics of yidishkeit straight, unfortunatly.
And btw, i am a woman...
Every dor gets the f
Gedolim the dor deserves to have and rhsts why its upon you ...
Furthermore your claim just intesifies my claim.
Not every one calling himslef Rav" is a fadol hador! Ther esi a consensus whothe gedilim are and you must listrn to them
Korach was NOT the fadol hador! Moshe rabeinu was the one! Ans becasue koraxh did NOT have emunas chachomim he stumbled!
Thats exsctly proving my point.
Not every "talmid chacham" is a gadol hador!
It takes a lot to become one!
As pwr tirah you must listen to gedolie hador, not to evey other jew on the street!
And if the Gedolim are the one telling tou something you must follow , EVEN IF you dont u derstsnd! Whts so complicated here to understand?! Its an explicit pasuk in the torah: לא תסורו מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל and as the meforshim state:"אפילו טם יגידו לך על ימין שהוא שמאל"!
You bring quotes form melamed who definitly is NOT a fadol hador and who is very questionable refsrding all his other reform issues.. anyhow..
Lwrs see you quoting rav chaim kanievsky, rav steineman, rav edelstin etc etc...
Because, you are not in thevlevel of chazal rht csn make such claims.
Obviously if a gadol did mot tell someone to leave(i dony know of anyone specifically ever saying so, but for arguements sake), it was obviously gezeras Hasehm for the gadolto say so. And after the things happened a sthey did you must not question them..
Bar kochvas where the gedolim at first mistakenly thought as mashiach , they recanted that thoight its not a comparissm of wht happend in thr holocaust...
Fact is:2) as pwr torah, you must listen to gedoilim regsrdless wht they say wherher you understsnd it or not...
2) rav dessler spoke AFTER the holocaust to aperson questionong gedoilom hav8ng a lck of emunas chachomim explainingto himwhat emunas chachomim meand.and eveything coming from tehm was a gezara min hashamayim and it had to happen
Because, you are not in the level of chazal that csn make such claims.
Obviously if a gadol did mot tell someone to leave(i dont know of anyone specifically ever saying so, but for arguments sake), it was obviously gezeras Hasehm for the gadol to say so. And after the things happened a sthey did you must not question them..
Bar kochvas where the gedolim at first mistakenly thought as mashiach , they recanted that thoight its not a comparissm of wht happend in thr holocaust...
Fact is:2) as pwr torah, you must listen to gedoilim regsrdless wht they say wherher you understsnd it or not...
2) rav dessler spoke AFTER the holocaust to aperson questionong gedoilom having a lack of emunas chachomim explaining to him what emunas chachomim means.and eveything coming from tehm was a gezara min hashamayim and it had to happen
Unknown
I will answer some of your nonsense even though there were others who answered your ignorant comments!
Go back to the kitchen and bake, you are over your head and clueless.
I re-read all the posts and NO ONE said that R' Dessler told Jews to remain in Europe, what they said was, Mrs Lukshin, that if its true as as you claim that R' Dessler admonished, presumingly a Holocaust survivor, about questioning Gedoilim that told Jews to remain in Europe, then R' Dessler had it wrong. Nothing wrong with that! I am sure that his rebbe, R' Yisrael Salanter would have had more compassion to someone who lost his family. And what they mentioned was a crucial fact, that R' Dessler was in England and no one in his family perished in the Holocaust, those are actual facts.It doesn't make him less of a Gadol but it does question his understanding the pain of a survivor! Yes we all know that R' Dessler spoke AFTER the holocaust happened, but instead of listening to someone who just lost his entire family and comfort him , R' Dessler in your own words "admonished" him. Only someone safely ensconced in England would do that.
Korach was actually a Godol Hador and so were his followers. The Torah itself states that the 250 followers were :
נשיאי עדה קראי מועד אנשי שם
See the Chuzkini
שהיו נקראין אל אהל מועד
See the Rabbeinu Bachye
ומכלל חמשים ומאתים אלו היו שנים עשר הנשיאים שהקריבו בחנוכת מזבח
There is no way that these "Tzaddikim" would have gone with Korach had he not been from the Gedoilei Hador
You then admit that R' Akiva made a mistake with Bar Kochba which proves that Gedoilim are not infallible! You say that one cannot compare a "maamer" Chazal with the Holocaust and I ask why not? Who are you who has a limited (from your answers) understanding of Chazal to tell us what we learn from Chazal. If the Chazal put this into the gemmara then this lesson of R' Akiva is a lesson that we should apply in the here and now! Yes! Its a gezirah " min hashamyim" but what does this have to do with advising Jews to remain when they had visas to escape to either the USA or Palestine? Even Yaakov Aveenu made plans for at least a 1/3 of his family to escape Eisav!
Look for part 2
Unknown Part 2
You quote:
"Its an explicit pasuk in the torah: לא תסורו מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל and as the meforshim state:"אפילו טם יגידו לך על ימין שהוא שמא"
This only applies on a psak halacha, it doesn't apply to someone holding a visa and the Nazis closing fast asking his rebbe if he should stay or leave! That rebbe should have answered him the truth: "I don't know" because really he didn't know!
If it was a "gezira min Hashamyim" why did the Belzer Rebbe, the Satmar Rebbe, the Gerer, R' Aron Kotler, R' Moshe Feinstein all escape?
Because even if its a "geizira" everyone has to put his family first and escape! Those Rabbanim who told them to stay were wrong. The Pasuk that you quoted above has nothing to do with a Rebbei or a Poisik giving advice!
You made a statement that is totally convoluted:
First you say that the wrong advice that some Gedoilim gave to people to remain in Europe was from Hashem but then you state that there were Gedoilim that told them to escape! So which is it, wasn't that also from Hashem?
And you miss the point entirely, the poor guy that complained to Rav Dessler also said that the Rabbanim that gave the advice to remain, escaped themselves with their families!
I want to ask you a question that we now know as facts: Rabbi Bleich the Gadol of Ukraine told his followers to remain in Ukraine just last week, but then he himself went back to Monsey?
So a guy, a pashuiter yid, living in Ukraine according to you should not question Rabbi Bleich? What would R' Dessler tell this Jew? Would he admonish him too?
and if you should answer that Rabbi Bleich is not a gadol, then who are you to judge? and how can a simple Jew judge?
gedoilim should answer the obvious: "do what's good for your family,I don't have the answers"
you are a simple minded lady you have no business on this blog.
Crazy that we have frum folks siding with the Russians . Regardless of what the urkrainin did during WW2 it does not give Russia the right to invade their country.
@Unknown @ 8:41 -----
1) He's RAV Melamed , that's his title. He's an exceptional talmid chacham even whether one agrees with everything he says or not, but obviously he's not your Yamin & Smoil type. In any case, Yami/Smmoil is not meant for the entire gamut of Torah because there are differences and machlokas all over gemarrah, rishonim , achronim and certainly to our day post. ( Can't recall at the moment but some meforshim explain yamin-smoil only in specific halacha. Please check. )
2) I have respect for R' Kanievsky & others you mentioned but what has this to do with this discussion ?
3) Two polar opposites: Baal Shem & Vilna Gaon's talmidim believed in Aliyah and many moved there with mesiras nefesh. No yamin/smoil differences there.
4) Arguably, one of the greatest rabbinical personalities of the 20th century , Harav Kook Zt"l & the others I mentioned pushed hard for Aliyah.... so what's your take on them ? yamin or smoil ?? Not your kind ??
5) Outside of Moshe , Korach , meraglim , Sanhedrin were indeed gedolei hador until they stumbled. See Rash , ad loc.
6) Interesting that you mention Mordechai Hatzadik. The whole thing started when many gedolei hador attended the banquet of Achasveirosh , thrown because he miscalculated the 70 years and celebrated his opinion that Bet Hamikdash won't be built again. So there was Badatz Malaga and L'mehadrin chicken bottoms brought to tables in golden goblets and Persian China, galore.
Mordechai sacrificed his life for the Jewish people , hustled, prayed , worked, and survived to return to EY as Mordechai Bilshon.
So here comes the last posuk in the megillah.... VEROTZUI LEROV ECHAV.... ROV , not all. Imagine, there were still these huge talmidei chachamim wo turned from him because he was close to the malchus or some other reason ( maybe envy ? ).
I'm going with Mordechai's yamin/ smoill .
Ya can't pshetel that last posuk away , nor Photoshop it out , or your Megillah is outright posul. It's there forever, my friend.
the Derby ... edited by Zev Jabotinsky .... " Either liquidate the galut, or the galut will liquidate you."
Unknown
such Ama'ratzas!
The pasuk you quoted:לא תסורו מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל
Doesn't refer to advice. It refers to halacha. And according to the Gemmarah in Mesachtas Sanhedrin it still cannot go against the Torah!
And this pasik doesn't address if someone cannot question the Dayanim who gave that psak. In fact every single statement of every single Tanna or Amorah is questioned. That in fact is , that this is the entire "shakel ve'taryeh" of the entire Shas! The only halacha and I say halacha that cannot be questioned is a הלכה ממשה מסיני and even that one can question if that is in fact a הלכה ממשה מסיני
Looking back in history one can now see that many of our Torah leaders were unfortunately wrong, and that doesn't make them any less of a tzaddik, but they should come out and be humble about it and say, you know what" In hindsight I was wrong! Don't put this on Hashem! Take responsibility.
The Rambam states that the Pasuk in Aleinu that states:
וידעת היום והשבת אל לבבך
Means that the way to Teshuvah והשבת אל לבבך is only if you וידעת
if you search and seek the meaning of every maamer Chazal, not just to accept blindly.
Ever Jew should absolutely question that is what learning is all about! Those schools that don't allow students to question are seeding a generation of "apikorsim"
ימין שמאל refers to the sanhedrin psaks during the bais hamikdosh.
YOU ate the one who speaks total NONSENSE and t seems you have a serious laco of education ans serious lack not only in world histoey but also in basic torah laws and csnbot even quote a mamar chazal.
Now you come with admitted "'assumptions" on whom the letter form rav dessler was directed to. Noo e said it eas to a holocaust survivor! Furthetmore, NO kitach was NOT the gasol hador!! Dont distort FACTS. Altboifh korach was a "talmid chacham", he was NOT the gadol hador. It yakes more than being a Talmid chocham to be a gadol hador!!! You now fuether show your totalnignotanc ei judaism. He had gaave. A gadol hadoe cannot have gaave, he must bw perfect in middos too! Moshe Rabeinu was the gasol hador. not Kotach. That ea skotwchs mistske by not accepting the rulership of the gadolhador and this is wht you ate doing righ tnoe with tour rediculous posts!!! You show total ignorance. Go get a life for yourslef and instead of these nonsenses you post, go open up sefor8m and go learn somethig. Some women ar emore learned thsn some am haratzim eho twist everyhing the torah says and wcerything gedoylim say! You add epikorsus to your "reply" and obviously wont publish comments that put you straight either. Rav Dessler who was an ish emes far more than you was NOT wrong. He was guided by pure torah which unfortunately you were not guided and it seems you are quite an am haaretz who cant even quote basic jewish verses correctly and spell wrong in addition. So go get a life instead of distorting wht the torah says and instead of spreading simple lies and expose yourignorance and your lack of emunas chachomim! In addition noone i know of ever advised not to escape when they had a possibility to escape . To the contrary.
You have a massive huge chutzpa to speak out agaisnt rav dessler זכר צדיק וקדוש לברכה!
He sure asmonished the person who showed a lack in eminas chachomin and taught him a lesson. 1) NOONE said this person as a holocuast survivor. That is YOUR made up story now which tou now claim a sbeing a fact 2) in addition you falslwy allege that rav dessler did not lose family in the holocaust. Just because he miraculasly survived, that is another lie .
Shame on you for lying and for speaking out against gedolei yisroel. You should go ask mechila at his kever!
100% agree!and DIN wont publish severwl comments ther put him straight includ8ng his ignorance in basic verses of chazal
Tounobviously did jot read thr mefarshim of why he was ratzui lerov echav! The reas9ne as because he was oisek bezorchei tzibur and had less time to be oisek betorah at the end.
2. NOONE is agiasnt alya to wretz yistoel. It has NOTHING to do withthe ststr of isralea s you admitted.it was something thst religious jews long befor ethe haskalaspiredto throighout the generstions amd for many hindreds of years! Alressyrav yehuda hachasid weites how he yearned to EY! Ans so did all yeh gedoilim. NOONE encoureged yidden not to move to eretz yistoel atany point i time.
Pleasedont twist around history.
Fuetehmore melamed is cloartothe maskilim so i couldnt care less wht youquote in his name. Moshe mendelso was also a "talmid chacham" but a maskil.
Further, wht i quoted about ימין ושמאל, was not my own but a quote that RAV DESSLER זכר צדיק וקדוש לברכה quoted and in regards to this exact matter!! Mordechai did not tell the jews any halacha when he told them why the gezera of haman came,he told them the reason and instructed them what they must do as a result! So that ימין ושמאל
goes also on such matters and NOT only on halacha. Go attempt to argue against Rav dessler. You stand as dust against him!!
Your ignorance against his vast torah knowledge and astonishing gadlus in middos cannot be even placed on any comparison scale of 1 to 1000
Ponovitzer, Further to ky previus reply olease see exact writing of Rav dessler in
מכתב מאליהו,
(ח"א עמ' 75, מכתב בדבר אמונת חכמים) שכתב כנגד אחד שטען שגדולי הדור לפני המלחמה טעו ובגללם לא עלו בני אירופה לארץ ישראל ואז היו ניצולים, וכתב לו הגר"א דסלר דחלילה לומר כן שכל הגדולים טעו ואסור לשמוע דברים אלה וכש"כ לאומרם. וכתב שם "וכבר אמרו לנו חז"ל לשמוע לדברי חכמים אפילו אומרים לנו על שמאל שהיא ימין, ולא לומר ח"ו, שבודאי טעו מפני שאנכי הקטנטן רואה בחוש את טעותם, אלא החוש שלי בטל ומבוטל הוא כעפרא דארעא כלפי בהירות שכלם וסייעתא דשמיא שלהם. הן אין בי"ד יכול לבטל בי"ד אא"כ גדול ממנו בחכמה ובמנין. ובלי זה קרוב הוא אשר מה שידמו שהוא חוש אינו אלא דמיון ורעות רוח. זוהי דעת התורה בגדר אמונת חכמים". וע"ש שהביא סייעתא לדבריו בשם הגרש"ז במהלך הדברים שבמגילת אסתר, וסיים שם במכתב מאליהו "חסרון הכרת ההתבטלות לעומת רבותינו - זהו שורש כל חטאת ותחילת כל חורבן ר"ל, וכל הזכיות לא ישוו לעומת שורש הכל, שהיא - אמונת חכמים".
So to all those commenters who outragously claim to know what ימין ושמאלrefer to and calom thst i am an am haaretz by claiming so, see their massive chutzpah to go against rav Dessler who eas on all accounts a far greater torah scholar than those ignoteant commenters here. Its HIS quote and claim! Not my own!! Their sheer ignarance and am haaratzus pale into insignifcace to Rav Deasler זצ"ל!
They are the am haaratzim here
Anonymous, YOU are the am haaretz here.Rav Dessler who you i believe you admittedly will never attempt to compare yourself to him neither in his vast geonus and gadlus in torah norin his gadlus in middos, is the one who made the claim of לא תסורו מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל, on this specific matter and NOT on halacha as you claom iy only tefersto halacha!! Daas torah is not just on strict halacha matters.
עפרא לפומיא for going out against gedolei yisroel
The gemara tells us in Gittin (sometimes learned on Tisha Be'Av, Kamtza-Bar Kamtza) of a matzav of משיב חכמים אחור ודעתם יסכל, of הקב"ה confusing a tzadik so he does not know how to handle things, as happened during the time of the churban. There could be a gezeira and Hashem does not want the tzadik to stop it.
ה' ירחם עלינו
If tou vlaim to publish not just toyr opinion its a lie. For obvious reason you refuse to publish all my replies to tours and "anonymous" redicoulous FALSE claims whoch prove sctually Your ignorance. Tou obviously think tou are in communist russia now where any lunatic opinion form the government csnnot be called out for what it is.. no free speech.. you were provinf your ignorance not just in your foolish baselss replies which have no basis i judaism, and not evrn being able to quote correctly or spell correctly a chazal, tet whe your comments are being replied to you dont publish them. Wonder how come you claim on thr buttom then that its not about you bit that "site will be sedicated to the truth" when you block the truth people send in! A little bit of honesty and less ignorance wouldnt harm you!
This what I want to say, doesn't really belong on this thread, but this is where it landed for the time being.
Rabbi Teichtal brings the words of Rabbi Yonasan Eibeschutz and the Chasam Sofer and The Divray Yechezkel (Shinieve) who wrote against the collective moving to Eretz Yisroel. So he explains that their position was justified in the situations which existed in their times and places of residence, where Jews were able to live freely. (Not that it was a picnic for Jews and not that there didn't exist antisemitism, but it was basically ok and livable.
Our present day America is probably not worse in those regards than what they had, and additionally as an extra point unnecessary to my argument, one would be hard presses to state with any degree of certainty or clarity that present day Israeli life is safer than life in the tri-state are.)
He says however that when it became a living gehinom in Europe and Jews were being deprived of basic rights of life and sustenance and the possibility to move to Eretz Yisroel was becoming a reality, that was a sign from Hashem to pick up and move there. One could argue based on this that the situation in Ukraine warrants those people to collectively move to E.Y. but one could also argue that the trouble there is not targeted against Jews per se and therefore maybe it's different and when it will resolve between the two countries one way or the other, the Jews could again live there freely. I will leave that question for others to deliberate because I myself don't know. But In the U.S. I feel it's certainly not the case.
So Rabbi Teichtal himself would perhaps not advocate for American Jews to make aliya and join the Zionists. Just to note; Rabbi Teichtal who was a huge gaon and tzaddik didn't dare say that those geonim tzaddikim mentioned above were wrong, even though he did say so about some gedoilim of his time, all while he still held them in the highest regard.
I ask that anyone wishing to address my comment should please avoid using insulting language as that adds nothing to the discussion but it only detracts.
This is from https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%97%D7%A7_%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%A7%D7%91_%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%A1#%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99
על פי עדותו של הרב ריינס עצמו באחד מספריו, לאחר שהתפרסם דבר השתתפותו של הרב ריינס בקונגרס הציוני, באו אליו כמה מראשי המתנגדים לציונות וניסו לשכנעו לעזוב את תנועת הציונות, משום שחששו שהצרפותו לתנועה תגרור אנשים נוספים להצטרף אליה. דברים אלו רק גרמו לרב ריינס להאמין בצדקת דרכו, "כי ראיתי כמה שאין שום ממש בדבריהם". הרב ריינס מספר, שאחר כך בא אליו "אחד מן היותר מפורסמים שבמדינתנו" (הוא החפץ חיים[29]), ושוחח עמו שיחה ארוכה במטרה לשכנעו לעזוב את הציונות, בין מחמת הטעות שבדרך זו, ובין מחמת הבזיון שיגרום לעצמו אם ישאר שם. הרב ריינס דחה את כל טענותיו, והוסיף שלדעתו "לא לבד שאין להתרחק מהתנועה (הציונית), כי עוד חוב קדוש יש על כאו"א מישראל להתחבר אליה".[30]
So The Chafetz Chaim disagreed with Rav Rainus.
Also there Wiki explains that Rav Rainus was motovated because of the terrible situation of the Jews in Russia at that time, and he was good for the idea of Uganda, because as long as we find a safe haven for Jews. So it wasn't even about ישוב ארץ ישראל. But even so The Chafetz Chaim disagreed.
Mrs. Dessler, are you talking about the Queens Rebbe whose shtiebel was sold to the since absconded thief Ashkenazy? That Rebbe's son moved way out to the Modern Orthodox. He has total contempt for the moderner but takes their money. And the son can barely attract even Americans. He barely has a minyan, half of whom are Conservative Jews who never finished becoming Orthodox.
You and others are grossly misinterpreting the Uganda option. It was ALWAYS about settling ONLY in EY.
At the time of the proposal at that Zionist Congress , the pogroms and situation of the Jews was perilous. Many in the English government were not moving in sync with the Jewish emigration to then Palestine , money was tight and other factors.
So the Uganda option was proposed as a TEMPORARY solution only. Herzl reluctantly supported it at first but later turned full force against it himself. You read Wiki... read R' Reinis letters and sefer instead. His whole life was dedicated to saving Jews and moving them only to Eretz Yisrael.
The hypocritical anti -Zionists have distorted the truth about Uganda for eons. R' Reinis 's father and family were already in EY when that 1837 earthquake hit Tzfas , lost his family , remarried in Europe , bore the young Yitzchok Yaakov there , and the love of EY is apparent in all of R'Reinis' writings. It was always about EY for him and Herzl whom he admired.
You may be a tinok shenushba who only knows Wiki , but the rest of them are putrid liars.
the Derby.. מדבר שקר תירחוק
Listen Unknown ,
You're obviously an admirer of R'Dessler which is fine. I challenged you to comment on Rav Kook but you're ignoring. I want you to show everybody where your ' hoont iz bagruben'. I already know the answer.
Read Rav Teichtal's Eim Habonim directly. His sefer is all and only about yishuv EY.So are the writings of R'Reinis. We don't emigrate there for safety. This is a mistake ... When we lap up safety ,nice homes , good Chul bagels and make lots of dough , we forget about EY. Hashem is now squeezing all these out of our lives to push us there. Safety is a phony issue. We just don't want to move there.. What did Nachbi ben Vofsi say ? ארץ אוכלת יושבה.. It's safer here in the midbar.. we want safety ... We want the 'ole Egyptian fish with chrein..
the Derby.... זכרנו את הדגה.. ז..Wy wy wy.. oy the zeece Peruvian melons , oy oy...
You obviously didn't read Rav Teichtal inside. So if Moshiach comes this evening and we have 3 homes and a a Lexus , what are we to do ? It's nice & safe , we'll soon skeddale to Eden Resorts for Pesach nongebroktz getaway costing 50,00$$ pesos. Who needa him ? We're lacking in understanding of what Eretz Yisrael is and means. The safety issue has no place here. With mass Aliya because we desire to live in Hashem's country , we can make it terror proof be"H if we want and are maaminim. But we don't and aren't. Now be honest : How many Jews will pack up and run when Moshiach shows up ? How many Kohanim & Leviim who have no nachla but depend on maaser are going to abandon their renovated homes in golus to gallop into tents in the Negev suddenly ? You see , Moshiach isn't coming with money.. please ... Let's stop the safety hazzerei already.
Fetter Shmeel mit de meeme Bleemeh
The Bimbamgonie's two cents :
Sir; the golus is not meant to last , it's a curse. You're not seeing the signs even in America. Your safety there is on eggshells. Where are the following :
Yerushalayims d'Lita , Berlin , Slobodka , Grossverdein , Kleinverdein, Pupa , Satmar , Vilna , Barcelona , Izmir , Pressburg , Munkatch , and soon to be Boro Park , Baltimore , Flatbush and Monsey ??? Where are the big shuls of Chicago , Brownsville , East Side , inner Detroit? Everything gone and the rest going.. You're a Jew in golus. You're never safe.
.....He says however that when it became a living gehinom in Europe and Jews were being deprived of basic rights of life and sustenance and the possibility to move to Eretz Yisroel was becoming a reality, that was a sign from Hashem to pick up and move there. One could argue based on this that ....
That's not what he meant. He himself said that he changed his anti-Zionist stance when he saw the sakanah enfold. Read him carefully. He's saying that the sakanah was proof that Hashem wants us to be in Eretz Yisrael even in "good" times but will make it rough so that we realize it. If not the good way , then the other way. That's what he says... Cha Cha de Chazzente
כִּֽי־בָחַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֣ה בְּצִיּ֑וֹן אִ֜וָּ֗הּ לְמוֹשָׁ֥ב לֽוֹ זֹֽאת־מְנֽוּחָתִ֥י עֲדֵי־עַ֑ד פֹּ֥ה אֵ֜שֵׁ֗ב כִּ֣י אִוִּתִֽיהָ
For those that are being inundated here with , this rav said this, he said that, he meant this, Uganda, safety , of course, Chafetz Chaim and are being treated to either subtle or outright indifference to EY via the pshetlech, taking out of context, Wiki, Wifi, Tiki, Toki .... Here's the mother of all bottom lines..
I've said it before and say it one more time..
The Meraglim, huge talmidei chachamim, decided to rebel against Hashem. Because of their knowledge and chochma ( They became ksils after they spoke stupid lies ) , two things happened;
1) Moshe gave Yehoshua a special bracha not to be influenced by them.
2) Calev prayed at the Mearat Hamachpelah so he too should not be convinced by them.
What does this tell us ?
That their shrewdness, toiralech, logic and chochma was so great and deep that they could have convinced even a Yehoshua to fall for their corruption.
As they crossed into the Land they began their campaign immediately. Calev was listening and was awed. But in his heart he knew they were dead wrong. Yet he was mesmerized by their svoros , so he ran off to Chevron to daven so that his mind should not accept this propaganda.
You hear ??? All of what you guys are listening to today, all their "factoids" and drushoslach and svoros can be demolished and contradicted.. We see here some who are doing it.
You cold shouldered- not- very pro EY'nicks have nothing compared to what the Meraglim had.. You are deluxe am'haaratzim compared to them.
Yet they were wrong !!!!! And so are you !!!
The midrashim tell us that the Shechina did not move from the Kotel Hamaaravi evenin our time. Granted, it's not the same as before , but the Bet Hamikdash milmaalah adjoins the one below.
You either love the Land because Hashem loves it , or you love the galut and wait to run only before it's too late.
G-D help the Ukranian Jews , but the same could happen everywhere. If you don't want to believe, Hashem will tighten the noose... Stop kidding yourselves...
Have a wonderful day ..!!!
the Derby & staff.
To Unknown (Part 1)
Before you write...think!
First of all you are the one brought up R' Dessler. No one will argue that R' Dessler was nothing but a great tzaddik, but this views is from a "yachud" and is not accepted by the majority. The majority of Torah Scholars hold that the pasuk לא תסורו מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל does not apply to advice! And one can certainly go to many different rabbanim to get different advice.
And this happened a year ago during Covid, no one would dare say that one should follow the advice of a Gadol if it went against Science, even if this was the view of your own Rav and you asked him for advice, and this was the opinion of R' Chaim Kanievsky.And there were many Gedoilim that said that one should NOT get vaccinated, and no Rav or Poisek brought down your verse in the Torah.Why not?
Again, this pasuk is not applied broadly it cannot be applied by a poisek if there is a clear cut psak in Shulchan Aruch.
R' Dessler and his entire family was B'H saved from the Holocaust, therefore his answer to someone who questioned the advice from Gedoilim that advised people to remain has to be taken in context of the those awful times. There is no question that the question was from a Holocaust survivor, it could not have come from a guy sitting on his lounge chair in LA smoking a cigar whose entire family was alive and well, it came from a broken man who lost his entire family!
The Ponivitzer Rav brought down this letter from R' Dessler to justify his psak that the boys and girls orphans that survived the war were permitted to sing together and he based it on the Pasuk of
עת לעשות לה' הפירו תורתך he felt that this was a time not to be makpid on this, and to bolster his argument he brought this pasuk! But this was not a permanent psak it was only temporary, in fact the Chazon Ish agreed!
Rav Teichtal clearly wrote about the Gedoiei Hador that didn't allow Jews to make Aliyah and you can look this up yourself עתיד ליתן דין וחשבון and he adds that this opinion was a huge mistake!
The Zohar on Parshas Korach states clearly that Korach was Gadol Hador and in fact writes that when Moshiach comes he will serve as the Kohein Gadol. I myself do not understand this but be this as it may, Korach was indeed a Gadol Hador.
You wrote that a Gadol Hador has to have perfect middos, I don't know where you get this but even Moshe had to work on his middah of anger.
When he told the Jews שמעו נא המורים there is no human created that has "perfect middos" The only singular being that has perfect middos is the Ribbono she Oilom!
Unknown (part 2)
You scribble;
"Rabbi Teichtal who was a huge gaon and tzaddik didn't dare say that those geonim tzaddikim mentioned above were wrong,"
If you have the "Pri Haeretz" edition see page 37 where he quotes the Chasam Sofer:
"אלא לומדי תורה ואפילו רבנים, כל שאינו דובר אמת בלבבו ולא היושר והצדק מרכבו, הרחק דרכך ממנו הסר רגלך מנתיבו'
and then he adds a bombshell
ולאנשים כאלו, אפילו אם יביאו להם אלפים ראיות מן התורה לא יועילו כלל להטות לבם אל האמת
וכאשר כבר אירע כן ליהושע וכלב עם המרגלים,
He is basically calling the Anti-Aliyah gedoilim, "Meraglim"
. He says that even if they brought thousands of proof from the Torah they are basically wrong and he compares them to the meraglim that tried to influence Yehoshua and Calev. According to Chazal the Meraglim were the Gedoilei Hador after all they were hand chosen by Moshe himself!
I think that Rav Teictal had you in mind as well..you can bring all the proof from whomever you want, you are still wrong!
And for every proof Ill bring you proof like my position.
But I do want to point out something what "The Derby" mentioned. You want us to respect "your gedoilim" but you have absolutely no respect for Gedoilim that you disagree with, so you mock Rav Melamed a mechaber of hundreds of seforim because your Gedoilim don't agree with him. You would be from those who burned the sefarim of the Rambam and the Ramchal. These Sefarim were burned and banned by the "gedoilei Hador" from that generation! Would you say that those Gedoilim that banned the Ramchal made a "mistake?" Well the Gra certainly said so as he took out the Ramchal from mothballs and began learning the Mesilas Yeshurim even though they were banned by the Italian Gedoilim ...these gedoilim were "rishonim"
About Uganda.. let me say this, I know that Satmar and other Zionist mock Herzl for first wanting Uganda as a haven for the Jewish people.
The difference is that Herzl only "wanted" to do that but Satmar and Skver actually did it; they moved their followers not to Israel but to the US "Uganda" like Uganda Kiryas Yoel and Uganda New Square! They did what they mock Herzl for just "wanting to do"
Derby,
Your comments are full of sound and fury, to compensate for that which they fail to signify. My quoting from Wiki was an expression of humility and transparency, in that I don't claim to know it all and I admittedly know very little about Rabbi Reines. But I have Rabbi Teichtal's אם הבנים שמחה on my table and am trying to understand.
Did I misquote at all what he says about the words of Rabbi Yonasan Eibeschutz and the Chasam Sofer and The Divray Yechezkel?
About this constant comparison to the meraglim, It's no comparison. If it is blasphemy to choose to remain in chutz la'aretz, how could the Bach say that if he feels parnassa is tighter there he is justified to stay in chu'l against his wife's wishes? As Rabbi Teichtal says in connection to someone who made inaccurate comparisons to the words of the Divrei Yechezkel. He says that in psak hakacha if the case is not the same you can't learn from there. Hashem clearly was taking the Yidden from Mitzraim to Eretz Yisroel. The meraglim were clearly defying him. To argue on that is to argue on the clear obvious truth. That is not the case today. We don't have in out times a navie mumcha who said כה אמר השם. And while there were talmiday chachamim who said so, there were also those who said different and neither was speaking with nevua like Moshe Rabainu. So the comparison is null and void so please don't repeat it again because it's nothing but demagoguery.
And to the fellow who ended Cha Cha de Chazzente,
He said that Rabbi Yonasan Eibeschutz and the Chasam Sofer and The Divray Yechezkel were correct because there was no danger in their times. (Even though there had been times earlier in Jewish history where there were pogroms in the worst way, but in the times of those gedoilim it wasn't so, so they were right.)
Back to Derby.
You wrote: You either love the Land because Hashem loves it , or you love the galut and wait to run only before it's too late.
It's all about love for hashem which means living in teshuva and abstinence from issurim and devotion to Torah and Mitzvos, right? So say for example (very common) if someone feels that to move to Eretz Yisroel will require a grand upheaval in his family's life, and he will forever be indebted to his family and have to be busy making it up to them, and this will cause a diminished opportunity to Torah and Mitzvos (I could elaborate but I think you can get the idea), then his love for Hashem makes him want to be able to be devoted to Torah and Mitzvos and not say that moving to Eretz Yisroel is above all the rest of Yiddishkeit. In the sefer Shivas Zion it does say that even if living in E.Y. would mean for him to not keep The Torah 'ועי"ז פורק ממנו עול תורה ומצוות' to quote exactly, it's better than to live in chu'l ועי"ז ישמור התורה והמצוות בשלמות. But I beg to differ. I think that statement doesn't reflect love for Hashem at all, and it shows that for some people the whole thing is an agenda that doesn't have anything to do with Hashem.
(This is probably what The Bach meant.)
Dusiznies,
Firstly, I really should have given myself a specific pseudonym to avoid confusion. I used plain anonymous and I am not the same as 'Unknown'. I wrote abour Rabbi Teichtal and Uganda but not about Rabbi Melamed and I didn't mock any Rabbi at all. So from here on, in this discussion, I'm Yankel.
You quote from Rabbi Teichtal isn't a chiddush to me as I have seen such words in other sefarim as well. Of course anyone can put himself on the right side of that coin and put his opponent on the other side. So it's silly of you to use that to make your point. And again, Rabbi Teichtal says, as I clarified earlier, that he was speaking about the terrible tragic times in which Jews found themselves then.
I really dont get your statemwnts. The torah states that in every singoe dor there will be gedolim! Of course we wont get a gasil as the chafet chaim in our generstion because the gadlus of the gedolim will get are depending of the level of the generstion so if you are low, the gedolim too must be on a lower level but they still ARE gedolim! Further, its terr8boe and baselss your statement thst the askanim lead the "gedolim" by their nose. If someone ois bei g led by askanim, by definiti9n he is NOT a gasol. The gedolleyhador go by pure daas torah and NO askan of anytype will ever lead him by his nose!! That is an extremely false stateent.!
And again, not any joe doe who calls himslef a " rav" is a fasol hador! And not even aany tal.id chacham is a gadol hador! It takes a lot of qualities to be one!!!(to answer also DIN false claims: rav bleich with all due respect is NOT gadol hador at all, far from it!!) You have a serious misconception of what a gadol hador means!
But we sure do have gedolim today too as in every generation until the coming of mashisch!!
Since it's open season here to 'question' gedoilim, what's wrong if I have a question or a problem with the fact that Rabbi Reines admired Theodore Herzl, and what's wrong if that admiration puts a huge question mark on the halachic reliability of Rabbi Reines? Or is the fact that someone is very brilliant all that we care about? Isn't it supposed to be about Hashem? So how is a person who didn't keep the Torah to be admired and followed?
But no! We may only criticize the opposition gedoilim but ours are beyond reproach, right?
Derby said
'I see regular awesome people making Aliyah ( absent Covid)... They are the PUK CHAZI.'
But you ignore the awesome people who didn't make aliya. They don't qualify as PUK CHAZI? So it's not PUK CHAZI, but it's whatever argument supports your point of view.
I am not categorically saying that everything you are saying is wrong. I am only criticizing your approach which seems to be totally one sided and not willing to consider anyone else's opinion, but demanding fiercely and with insults נאך דערצו , that everybody else concede to yours. If you have a question on a gadol, you disqualify him and compare him to meraglim, but if someone has a question on other gedoilim you insult him.
I began this discussion with a fair question, and requested that it be dealt with in a respectful tone. But you refused to do that and instead scream קבלו דעתי and insult anyone who doesn't.
Yankel
You wrote:
"Rabbi Teichtal says, as I clarified earlier, that he was speaking about the terrible tragic times in which Jews found themselves then."
I don't know what that even means. Of course he wrote about what happened "then" With your logic you can eliminate half the Torah because it happened"then." Rav Teictal wrote a "kuntras" which he wanted distributed for all times! When a "gadol" and we will agree that he was a "gadol" writes a sefer its applicable for all times!
To Unknown
You scribble:
"If someone ois bei g led by askanim, by definiti9n he is NOT a gasol. The gedolleyhador go by pure daas torah and NO askan of anytype will ever lead him by his nose!! That is an extremely false stateent.And again, not any joe doe who calls himslef a " rav" is a fasol hador! And not even aany tal.id chacham is a gadol hador! It takes a lot of qualities to be one!!!(to answer also DIN false claims: rav bleich with all due respect is NOT gadol hador at all, far from it!!) You have a serious misconception of what a gadol hador means!"
You say that Rav Bleich is not a "gadol" I happen to agree, but who are you to say that he is not "a gadol? His followers think that he is a gadol!
Would you agree that Rav Shteinman was a gadol?
I believe he was, yet when he made a visit to Monsey in the Atriam Hall on route 59, thousands of Chassidim called him a "sheigatz" and had posters with "YM"S" after his name! I was there with my children! His grave in Bnei-Brak is constantly being defaced by talmidim from Ponovitz! It was defaced just laast mgain! So would you say that he was a gadol? Well 95% all chassdim don;t think so!
I will give you another example:
Do you think that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was a "gadol?"
I believe he was, yet Rav Shach the Ponovitzer Rosh Yeshivah referred to him many times as the "Oso Ha'Ish"..And that is a fact! So was the Lubavitcher Rebbe a "gadol"?
You say that a "gadol" that is being led around by askanim isn't a "gadol" So you are basically saying that R' Kanievsky is not a "gadol"Because two years ago I happened to be in Yerushalyim and there was a huge rally to encourage people to come out to vote, Rav Kanievsky was heard asking someone near him on an open mike "Vus tee Ich do?" "what am I doing here" ..You see.. he was shlepped from Bnei-Brak to this rally and he had no clue why he was there? This recording went viral and was reported in the Israeli Press at the time! So is he a "gadol?"according to your definition he is not!
I believe that you chose your gedoilim and are mocking "gedoilim" that others call "gedoilim".. you are either a hypocrite or very naive who went to Bais Yaakov Seminaries that were led by Rebbitzens pushing the naive girls to marry learning boys so the Rebbittzin's husbands who are Rosh Yeshivas can have a parnassah. It's not "Lismah", if it was the rebbitzens would encourage the girls to marry a baal middos!
You say "daas torah" I ask you: Whose Daas Torah?
If you ask any Chassid on the street if Rav Kanievsky is "daas torah" he will tell you "NO"
If you ask a Litvak if Sagiger or Ger is "daas torah" they will laugh at you..For a Litvak, any chassidishe rebbe is NOT "daas torah"
For a Sgardie, both litvishe and Chassidishe poiskim are NOT "daas torah"
So whose "daas torah" are you scribbling about?
as I said before .you are way over your head and should do what an Eishas Chayil does, bringing their husbands a glass of hot tea!
We're 400 years post Bach. Many unfortunate greater calamities happened and by miracle , Eretz Yisrael has been re-established after 2000 years.Ramban & others predicted Jewish return and settlement there before Moshiach. The Bach didn't predict that.Rav Teichtal is very , very clear throughout his sefer about yishuv EY. I read it in Hebrew at least 20x and English translation maybe 10x.
The statement of Rav Abba in Sanhedrin that the greatest sign of imminent geulah is the growing of beautiful crops which never happened before Jews of all and any stripes came to settle in the 19th century and beyond. This land didn't yield a thing to any invader and conquerer for 2000 years.
Rav Reinis was not the only one to admire Herzl , there were other rabbanim also. Herzl , after he underwent a metamorphosis became a fierce fighter for downtrodden Jews all over Europe and died young as a result. Binyamin Zev Herzl is a hero. Zev Jabotinsky is a hero. He changed from a secular Odessa writer after he visited the pogromed city of Kishinev and saw a piece of a sefer Torah in the ruins. The fragment said " Eretz Nochria ". He put it in his pocket and kept it there for the rest of his life. He believed this was a message to him and Jewry.
Especially after the miracles of 1967 when Hashem gave us control over Judea and Samaria , we have an obligation to see the Yad. The setbacks , intifadas etc.. are our fault. The geulah approaches and we push it back. Then Trump recognizes Jerusalem and Golan and we're indifferent. So Covid, Trump's loss , coalition government comes and get pushed back again. Moshiach can come in one fell swoop today but he's not. The geulah is unfolding as slow or fast depending on us.
The most important thing is where your heart is.Does one desire to live in EY or not ? The circumstances that could prevent that, should be truth , not lame excuses.
The mitzvos were given to be performed ONLY IN EY. You cannot seperate EY from the Torah , you cannot perform mant mitzvos in Shmonsey or Willi or Lakewood. This is false . So says Rabbeinu Bachaya among others. Very , very important.The psukim beginning even at yetziyas Mitzraim and onward speak of the coming into the Land of Milk & Honey numerous times.The seperate Torah & mitzvos from EY is false. This however is a discussion unto itself which needs to be addressed another day. There is no complete Torah without the Land.The Meraglim wanted Torah without EY. This sin was greatwr than the Calf.
Finally: When they start the Squeeze on us , we'll run to Israel, no kashas , no sheilus , no nuthin'. Observe Ukraine. Somehow we ran from nation to nation as we were chased even with only our gatches. Somehow when times get rough we run and bribe and then when some get killed , the blame game starts. Hameivin yovin V'hameivinteh tovinteh.
the Derby..
So here's one from the MABIT , going back several hundred years.
A bichr wrote to him that he had made a neder to move to EY but that his parents objected. On one hand there's a kibbud av and eim issue , on the other thete's the neder issue , what shoukd he do ?
MABIT's answer : You must honor your neder and ignore your parents. Why ? Because they too are required to do yishuv EY and they cannot tell you to break this mitzva.
A little more on Torah & EY...
The sin of Meraglim , which was to separate Torah & EY , brought a Bechichiya Ladoros ... brought an immediate gezeirah of eventually being dispersed into other lands. That didn't have to happen. Jews could've still lived in EY after the churban.
These 2 curses were only for this sin. Not for the eygel , Korach or any other sin they did. Only this one. Torah , HkB"H , Am Yisrael , Eretz yisrael, is ONE.
Derby & Nachman Nuta inn holtzkammer
Dusiznies,
Why do you say that? Halachos are for the situation to which they are referring. Rabbi Teichtal clearly writes as I say. And by the way, his geonus and apparent tzidkus displayed in this sefer אם הבנים שמחה as well as in his other sefarim is so huge, that I don't imagine there is anyone who comes even close today. He writes, about those godilim I mentioned earlier who were against the Zionist concept, that it isn't possible for one second that in the sitution of pikuach nefesh which is docheh Shabbos etc, they would say not to collectively move to Eretz Yisroel. These are the things he says. I'm reading this amazing work. Please read it yourself.
Yankel ,
Other people read this blog too. I'm not insulting you but am angry at those who have misinterpreted , lied and cursed pro -Zionist personalities without reading anything other than the propaganda dressed as "truth" and Torah.
Chill , brother... Derby.
Derby,
I want to explain my position, but it will require for me to collect my thoughts. Hopefully soon look out for it if you want to.
To DIN : i did not scribble anything about Rav teichtal nor did i even mention him anywhere, you are all confused, you must have responded to someone else!
2) nebach in you for not having the basic grasp of what a GADOL HADOR is vs stam "Rabbanim! Not every Rav calling himslef a Rav is a Gadol hador!! Its Basics
Furthermore, a GADOL will NOT go against torah and will ONLY give a DAAS TORAH and therefore you must follow HIM, whether you understand or not, and not the "science"! If you put your own 2 sense, which is obviously NO dass torah, bc you claim "science claims differently" then go believe also in the world existing millions of yesrs because thats what science says! We yidden shomrei torah follow daas torah only! Period!
You have your head not straight!!
Unless you are not religious, which seems to be the case form all your posts..
Also Please finally correct your misspellig of the chazal you attempted to quote.
3) dur9ng covid 19 there was also daas torah to vsccinate wh8ch followed with the doctors and science too , in case of refuah obviously the gedolim are inquiring whst the doctors have to ssy, but to say tht you dont listrn to gedolim but to science, is simply Outragous.
I hope you will post this post
1:46
You scribble and scratch:
"a GADOL will NOT go against torah and will ONLY give a DAAS TORAH and therefore you must follow HIM, whether you understand or not, and not the "science"! If you put your own 2 sense, which is obviously NO dass torah, bc you claim "science claims differently" then go believe also in the world existing millions of yesrs because thats what science says! We yidden shomrei torah follow daas torah only! Period!"
So whose "daas Torah"?
It's certainly not Rav Kanievsky since he openly stated and I posted it two years ago when Covid started, that he will be following "the science" after meeting Israeli scientists vis a vis Covid vaccinations.
Sfardim and chassidim don't follow the "Daas Torah" of the Litvaks.
And the Litvaks don't follow the "daas Torah of the Sfardim and Chassidim, so whose "daas torah"?
I don't really know how old the world is, in fact the Ramban in his "kisvei Ramban" writes that the world is millions of years old and that a day that we calculate as 24 hours is not a day by Hashem, by Hashem a day could be a thousand years. How old the world is I'll leave to bigger Talmeidei Chachamim, it makes absolutely no difference to me, if the world is 5,800 hundred years or if its 58 million years old, it changes nothing!
Shabbos is still Shabbos, and I still have to put on tefillin!
Whose "daas Torah: do you follow? The Rebbetzin in the Bais Yaakov?
Every Jew has his own "daas Torah" " Your understanding of "daas Torah" is of a 4 year old child!
I now understand why the "daas Torah" rabbis wrote in the Talmud that one shouldn't teach women Torah except the Halachos that they need like Niddah, Shabbos etc
I never really agreed with that, but after reading your comments I have to say that the rabbis with their "daas Torah" were absolutely correct!
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