ובני קורח לא מתו
Today I saw a comment on the Beit Shemesh Chat that shook me to the very core!
A lady from Beit Shemesh was sharing that she is recommending a school for High School girls that is based in Yerushalayim that caters to girls who were bullied! She is busing her daughter to Yerushalayim every single day so she would be in a "safe place."
Suddenly, I got an epiphany, a moment of sudden insight!"
The Gemarrah in Yevamos 62b, tells us that Rabbi Akiva
"had 12,000 pairs of students and all of them died in one period of time because they did not conduct themselves with respect towards one another"
"מפני שלא נהגו כבוד זה לזה " "because they didn't treat each other with respect"
Let that sink in!
They died! Why? Because "they didn't treat each other with respect."
Who were these students?
They were "Tanaim"!
They were the "gedoieli hador"; they were the ones who learned from the greatest Tanna ever, Rebbi Akiva!
They were the ones to give over the holy mesorah! and it was their rebbe, Rebbi Akiva that was the one who taught the famous dictum
ואהבת לרעך כמך זה כלל גדול בתורה
and though they had the greatest teacher, those words had absolutely no effect on them!
None! Zero! Nada!
I could never understand that, despite the many explanations that the commentaries give, it still begs the question: why did they have to die?
Did they kill someone? Did they rob someone? Why a death penalty??
I saw that even the Baalei Musser struggle with this!
The Chasam Sofer writes that the students lacked in one specific quality, and that is
"Loving Hashem's Creatures" .... Wow! What a powerful statement!
Question remains, why did they deserve death?
The Michtav Me'Eliyahu by Rav Dessler writes that whatever they did, they didn't deserve death, but at the same time, with this bad trait they weren't allowed to carry the mesorah further! If they had lived, they would have passed this trait to others, and Hashem wouldn't allow that!
Basically, it's not that they deserved death but they couldn't go on living either!
Back to my epiphany! I believe that students of Rebbe Akiva, bullied each other!! Yes! absolutely!
These great Tanaim bullied those whom they found not exactly like them! And that comes from, as the Chasam Sofer states from not "Loving Hashem's Creatures"
The latest WZO debate brought out the worst in people! And when I say people, I mean our Torah leaders!
Why can't a Torah leader state his opinion without degrading those who oppose his opinion?
Why must they "bully" the other side?
I noticed that those who were opposed to the vote, were writing nasty Kol Koras, while those who supported the vote were very respectful of the other side! Why was it necessary to lie and degrade those Gedoilim who urged to vote?? Why"
And this bashing and degrading was between Chareidim themselves!
I will bring you an example from my very own blog!
As you all know I come from a very Charedie Family!
It took me a while to notice that the extremist element of the Charedie community could not, and would not, tolerate anyone who came from their own community that had an opposing view!
Hence the battles between Satmar and Kloizenberg, Satmar vs Spinker, Satmar vs R' Moshe Feinstein, Satmar vs Satmar, Bobov vs Bobov, Viznitz Vs Visnetz, Ger vs Ger, Sadegre vs Sadagre, and I didn't even touch the Yeshivishe Communities who hate each other as well! One Charedie Gadol wrote a book where he states unequivocally that anyone who thinks differently than him is an "apikoras" and a heretic!
This is all between Charedim themselves!
There are antizionist guys that comment on my blog, that bash, ridicule and degrade in the most vile language other Charedie Gedoilim!
One particular guy, called the Zaken Hador R' Shmuel Kaminetzky.,. "Old Sam" and said that Rav Eliyashiv called him a "Rasha"
I don't know if this was true, but if it was, you have a Gadol like Rav Eliyashiv calling another Gadol a "Rasha!"
He further wrote that Rav Belsky was "evil" , and that the accepted Poisik Rav Asher Weiss was a "joke in the Torah Velt" !
This is a Charedie writing this about his own Charedie Gedoilim!
Well, you may say that this is just a couple of "nut jobs" but I can tell you that this is actually the Charedie thinking! I know because I follow social media and am on their chats!
Let me give you another example that happened just this evening in Shul!
I had some time between Mincha and Maariv as my Chavrusa was late, so I grabbed a sefer called
אורחות רבנו
which is about the minhagim of the Steipler and it is a 5 volume set.
In one of the chapters I was perusing, I saw that they kept referring (page קס"ו) to someone called "Unterman" ! I soon realized that they were referring to the Chief Rabbi of Israel, Harav Unterman, who was a huge Talmid Chachim and a Talmid of R' Shimon Shkop and was influenced by R' Shkop's unique halachic approach! This sefer didn't refer to Rav Unterman with a title like Rabbi, but just "Unterman!"
As I'm a glutten for punishment, I continued to skim through this volume and it didn't take long to see that they wrote that the Chazon Ish said that it is prohibited to read Rav Kalman Kahana's sefer since he, Rav Kahana was "נתקלקל" in other words "he went off" meaning the "derech" .
Rav Kalman Kahana was elected to the First Knesset as a member of the Agudat Yisrael Party! Rav Kahana was instrumental in taking down the third government when he disagreed with Ben-Gurion over the need to strengthen religious education! But that didn't stop the Chazon Ish from branding Rav Kahana for life as a נתקלקל, according to this book!
Again, I don't know if this story is in fact true, but if it is, you have one of the greatest Charedie Poiskim denigrating someone he didn't agree with!
On a page before (קס"ה), they totally decimate in the name of the Steipler, Harav Ovdia Yosef! They write that Harav Yosef
מעיז פניו בפיו כנגד שעורי החזו"א, ודרכו ללכת כנגד הרמ"א
"dared to go against the Chazon Ish's measurements, and against the Ramah"
Crazy! Insane!
Of course, Rav Yosef would not go with the Ramah as the Ramah was Ashkenaz and Rav Yoisef would naturally go with the mechaber who was a Sfardie!
Also, not one Poisik, be he Ashkanaz or Sfardirie goes with The Chazon Ish's measurements!
I am not going to go further into this story, you can read it yourself it's in the last volume!
So the Steipler because he disagreed with Harav Yosef, chastises Rav Yosef because he dared challenge the Chazon Ish, again, according to this book!
Why can't they all just state their opinion? Why must they degrade those who disagree?
Why can't they just write a sefer and discuss the greatness of the Chazon Ish and the greatness of the Steipler, why must they denigrate others to lift up the Steipler and the C"I?
I believe that all this constitutes "bullying!"
Charedim bully! Even their Torah leaders "bully" those who disagree with them!
It is interesting that if you read the Teshuvois of Harav Yosef be it "Yabia Omer, Chava Daas Yalkot Yosef, you will never find him ridiculing those who pasken differently than him. He brings down the Minchas Eluzer's psak with the greatest respect then writes why he cannot go with that psak.. all being respectful!
I believe that this is the pshat in מפני שלא נהגו כבוד זה לזה, It is not that they disagreed, but it was when they did disagree that they denigrated them!
And this is a great challenge, even 2,000 years later!
Going back to my introduction, how low have we sunk that they had to establish a school that won't tolerate "bullying" and establish a "safe place" for the girls!
The reason that children "bully" is because the parents do nothing!
And the reason that the parents do nothing is because they "bully" as well!
Yes, we are in the Sefira, a time to mourn, but it is a time to take a valuable lesson and learn from this tragedy, a tragedy that happened to the best, the cream of our Torah Scholars!
"Love Hashem's Creatures"
33 comments:
How about you talking nicely about Satmar as part of your campaign?
You can disagree with their opinion, but treat them with mentchlichkeit.
You are conflating the previous comments. R’ Avrohom Yehoshua calls the Kamenetsky father & son out as “reshoyim”. This is available from a taped shiur that was making the rounds. The duo are covering up mamzerus & other sick things so disagreeing with RAJS is also rishus, there is no choice al pi Hatorah. Rav Elyashev said that everything from Belsky is worthless, his gittin, kiddushin & all psak is not to be relied on. This was mainly do to Belsky’s shutfus with Mendel Epstein’s gangsterei & because of his fudging halacha on a regular basis to help the OU’s bottom $$ line. Asher Weiss is also a funny duck in halacha who was first choice to replace Belsky at the OU. And Weiss has been protecting molesters which suddenly some like to forget about when he’s useful to promote a certain slate in the WZO election
It's easier to get your way when you denigrate your opponent instead of proving him wrong rationally.
It's easier to be comfortably with your ideology when you never have to defend it because you insult anyone who's different.
https://magazine.atavist.com/all-that-glitters-jona-rechnitz-lawsuit-jadelle-jewelry-coba-ethereummax-mayweather/
This Modern Orthodox guy must have plenty of "ahavas" chinam the way he scams other Yidden
It’s really rich of you to preach this when everything from you is one sided to demonize Charedim. There are some Young Israels in Metro NY where much of the crowd is hostile to men wearing black hats & women wearing shaytelach. But that of course doesn’t fit your cynical agenda
Anyway, this whole rant of yours is hypocrisy, especially since you’re the big cheerleader of Teichtal who is a huge scathing basher & trasher of Charedi rabbonim. So much for your claim earlier today that Zionist rabbis don’t trash other rabbis. Feh!
11:53
Your comment confirms my entire post that Charedim bully each other! Your comment is the quintessential example of what I'm talking about!
Black crapper
Rav Teicthal z'l talks with the utmost respect, and therein is the difference!
For classic Modox the sign of 'making it' has been when you proffer published critique of leaders.So these broadsides should be therefore perceived as inherent flip sides of the same coin,albeit in different communicative style.
Furthermore, from their advent Modox have erected arguably their favorite denigrating charedi strawmen ie DT.
These screeds for good or ill should again prove (retroactively as well) DT was/has never as predominant as they,the naive,or the official media, have needed to pretend it.
Rav Teichtal, HY'D, is the opposite of what this post described. He writes of his disputants with great respect and tries to present their negative views with some justification. He's the example of what The Gedolim(tm) should be acting like.
Satmar? You want them to be spoken about with respect? Then perhaps the hypocrisy, the disgusting sibling hatreds, the denial of their own history re R Joel being rescued by Zionists, the violence and the arrogance.
Why would you talk nicely about a bunch of jew-hating supremacists who look down their noses at other Jews they consider less worthy?
Oh yeah, Munkatcher oisvorf Teichtal was such a big “mentch” (if you fall for DIN’s cover up) yet he practically cursed Charedi rabbonim with this sick utterance: “I do not know if they will ever be able to vindicate themselves before the heavenly court”
Always claim Sfardim on your side, derveil the biggest by the Sfardim, the Baba Sali, held shtark fin Vayoel Moshe & said so befarhesya. Rav Yakov Hillel no fan of Zionists either. Even their big posek Rav Ovadya Yosef assers the Tzioni flag in shuls, call it "a reminder of the acts of the evil-doers".
Wow spoken like a true anti semite let me guess are you a Zionist? You definitely sound like one
Munkatcher Tuchis
Your comment proves my entire post as אמת ויציו
Calling a Tzaddik who gave up his life al Kiddush Hashem, "an oisvorf" proves that Charedim eat each other alive and "bully" those who dissent
The quote that you quoted is actually very respectful, and he was absolutely correct, those "Gedoilim" who advised Jews in pre WW2 not to make Aliyah will not be able to vindicate themselves! They were the direct cause of the murder of their followers; that is one big burden to carry!
DIN veist Ya vus er redt
So now we won't listen to the Rambam and the Meeirie because they were Sfardim! LOL
BTW The Vayoel Moshe was NOT a poisik, in fact he himself said that multiple times!
I'm laughing, first this piece of drek puts down the Rambam and the Me'erie because they were sfardim and then he praises the Babi Sali the quintessential Sfardi because the Vayoel Moshe "held shtark from him"!
Wow the Vayoel Moshe "held shtark" from another Jew, WOW! That's takeh a groiser chiddush!
The psak of R Ovadia and BTW of R' Moshe Feinstein against having a flag in Shul has nothing to do with "Tzioni flag" it has to do with one shouldn't display any flag in shul even an American flag, you am-aratz!
But that didn't stop Satmars from bringing a Palestinian flag into their shul in Meah Shearim last week on Yom Hatzmoat!
Hey genius, Your reading skills are lacking so process all this 1. Baba Sali held of Satmar Ruv’s sefer on Zionism 2. Not poskening today like some Sfardi Rishonim is not a put down of them 3. Rav Ovadya in his psak calls Zionists the evil doers, he does not call Americans evil doers in relation to the Star Spangled Banner 4. How do you manage to see variations of the word defecation in every comment not praising Zionists?
Kriah Kocker
1. He held from which of Satmar books? They are mediocre as far as scholarly works are concerned! Very mediocre in fact! So, which book are you talking about?
2. You are the one with the nasty remark, which basically put them down...BTW let me let you into a secret, the mechaber of the Shulchan Aruch was a Sfardi!
3. I'm not sure he said that, but let's not look at what he said, and let's look at what he actually did. He formed a Party in the Zionist Knesset and subsequently became part of the Zionist Government!
4. How do you manage to live with yourself? Are you married? Does your wife know that you are on the blogs? You are one nasty, evil guy!
"which of Satmar books?" the one that gets you the most hopping mad for being critical of Zionist kefira
1:59
Again, which book?
He is "critical of Zionist kefira"
LOL!!! HA HA
He was totally obsessed with Zionism, because otherwise he wouldn't have anything to offer those Romanian Gypsies!
Also, he felt guilty because he had to turn to a Zionist to save his life, thereby violating his own added יהרג ועל יעבור
ויואל משה
Wow DIN you’re probably better off not commenting bad enough when you write your blogs you sound like a total idiot and anti semite but your comments make you sound brain dead. You obviously never read one shtickel from the satmar rebbe zt”l the biggest gaon in his time you’re and yes in the baba sali biography it says that the baba sali made a siyum when he finished vaYoel Moshe now I know your blood pressure is gonna soar to the highest of heights bc you hate talmidei chachamim especially those that are anti Zionist bc of your traumatic childhood but facts are facts and if you want to live your twisted messed up life your gonna have to face reality
There goes DIN gearing up for character assassination on someone opposing his Zionist manifesto. If he finds out his misnaged is an alter bucher DIN will do a hit job on him like he did to Weissman from End the Madness. Never mind that DIN has been on a rampage for weeks hurling every potty mouth insult at anyone skeptical of his Zionist apostles
6:56
That is a book full of hate against other Jews!
6:59
The" Babi Sali made a siyum after learning the Vayoel Moshe?"
He must of drunk a full bottle of Arak after that!
"the biggest gaon in his time"
wow the "biggest gaon"
Bigger than Rav Aaron Kotler? Bigger than Rav Moshe Feinstein? Bigger than Rav Henkin? Bigger than the Kloizenberger?
Listen buddy, I come from that community, he was judged a "gaon" by his followers who were a bunch of ama-ratzim Romanian Gypsies! Very few knew how to learn!
That's why the Satmar Rav ran around to litvishe Yeshivas to give shiurim because his followers wouldn't know what the He he was talking about!
I hope the Babi Sali wasn't judged for bittul torah when he read that sefer!
Yup you got it Mr Neis rav Ahron and reb Moshe were on par with the satmar rebbe. Ask rabbi dovid greenblatt a Talmid of reb Moshe who says that reb Moshe would sometimes send him to Williamsburg to ask the rebbe questions he didn’t have answers to. The way you twist facts is pretty impressive you also have a great imagination lots of potential for you don’t waste it
12:16
"Ask rabbi dovid greenblatt a Talmid of reb Moshe who says that reb Moshe would sometimes send him to Williamsburg to ask the rebbe questions he didn’t have answers to"
Wow!
R' Moshe z"l sent R' Greenblatt z"l to Satmar Rebbe so that he would answer questions that R' Moshe didn't know?"
Wow!
That's a new one!
Lets get this straight, are you saying that R' Moshe who who wrote 8 volumes of Shaalois Untsuhvois and had another 12 volumes on Shas, and wrote a sefer on Chumash, asked R' Dovid to ask the Satmar Rebbe who never in his entire life wrote on any Halacha, but did write a book filled with hate on other Gedoilei Yisrael, to answer a question that R' Moshe didn't know?
Are you saying that?
Well, in that case why didn't R' Moshe put that into his Igrois Moshe?
The story is a fabricated, hilarious lie!
In fact R' Moshe z"l wrote a psak and the Satmar Rebbe tried to have him backtrack, and he wouldn't, even when Satmar used violence against him! In fact that Psak is now used by Satmar and Boinei Olam !
12:16
I had some time and looked up what you wrote and lo & behold you are 100% correct.....
Reb Moshe did ask the Satmar Rebbe a question!
And guess what? I have the question:
Reb Moshe asked:
"Rebbe, Rebbe, they say you have רוח הקדוש
can you tell me ....WHO PUT GLUE IN MY LOCKS?"
And you are correct that R' Moshe didn't have the answer to that, so he had to send R' Dovid with the question!
So I ask you to forgive me for doubting you!
DIN loves fudging facts. Satmar Ruv never wrote on Halacha? What do you call Shu”t Divrei Yoel? And he never wanted R’ Moshe to retract any psak. There was just one psak that he felt he shouldn’t be mefarsem in print for tznius reasons & because some will abuse the psak without abiding by the tenoyim.
4:15
My advice to you is to do "Stand Up" you are hilarious!
Satmar Rebbe was advising the Poisik Hador about" tznius reasons?'
Are you kidding me?
and your second answer is a real doozy!
"because some will abuse the psak without abiding by the tenoyim."
What the Hell are you talking about??
"abuse the psak?" He wanted R' Moshe the poisik Hador not to be mefarseim a Psak Halacha? Are you insane?
BTW Please tell me on Shaaleh from the Vayoel Moshe that the Satmar Rebbe answered! Just ONE!
The Satmar Rav was not a poisik and had a Dayan that paskened!
You are a bona fide lunatic and did I say that you are a liar too?
The R’ Moshe psak that R’ Yoelish didn’t want publicized (but did not dispute its lomdus) was on artificial insemination which you would’ve known if you weren’t such a self-styled ‘know it all’ with that gigantic chip on your shoulder
8:28
R' Yoelish "psak" on artificial insemination would make all the children that Bonei Olam works on ..mamzeirim!
The irony of all this is that Bonei Olam and now Satmar itself rely on R' Moshe's psak!
R' Yoilish in fact did publicize it in "Der Goy " the Satmar propaganda Newspaper and had double full-page ads of his psak running on a weekly basis for a full year!
Those ads, I might add, mocked R' Moshe and tried to degrade him and it said that R' Moshe is מרבה ממזירים!
It seems that you are either a Baal Tesuvah and have no background of anything and you are just repeating like a parrot the bullcrap dished out to you, or you are young pisher! Either way the next time you write your bullcrap Ill delete your idiotic comments!
I am not a "know it all" I'm old enough to remember all this as it was playing out!
Again, R' Yoelish was not a poisik and was up to his neck with his understanding; arguing with R' Moshe was not a good idea!
R' Moshe was not all impressed with the Satmar Rav's reasoning and never wavered in his psak. The reason that the Satmar Rav "didn't want it publicized"(which he actually did in Der Goy) had nothing to do with "tznees" and everything to do with a lack of Halacha scholarship!
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