Monday, March 30, 2020

The Death of Daas Torah?

I don't agree with the writer of the post below ...
I believe that there was never such a thing as "Daas Torah" ever?

What?  You apikoras!

So let me tell you something shocking.....

I grew up in a generation led by ...

R' Moshe Feinstein, Rav Henkin, R' Yoel Teitelbaum Satmar Rebbe, Kloizenberger Rebbe, R' Shlomo Halberstam Bobover Rebbe, The Steipler, Rav Gustman, The Bais Yisrael the Gerer Rebbe, Tzelemer Rav, First Skulaner Rebbe, Rav Parlor, Mattesdorfer Rav, Reb Yaakov Kanievsky, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rebe Moshe Bick, Bluzever Rebbe, Etc etc ....The Rabbanim from the previous generation....

Now .... guys hold on to your seats .... buckle up...
Ok ...Ready ???

I never ever heard the term "Daas Torah" until way after I became a grandfather! 
There I said it ....

No one uttered those words ever.... ever...
People followed their rabbanim and poiskim 
but to say that's "Daas Torah?" 

By saying that's "Daas Torah" means that my friend who follows another Poisek not "Daas Torah"
So... no... I don't agree that now is the "Death of Daas Torah"
There never was such a concept ever as "Daas Torah"

This was made up by the Litvaks .... the Yeshivishe Oilom to distinguish them from the Chassidishe and Mizrachi poiskim!

Eilu Ve'Eiluh Divrei Elokim Chayim

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It was only 24 hours ago that I wrote about the problem of street minyanim. And now, in a stunning turn of events, Rav Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Gershon Edelstein ruled that it is forbidden to davven in a street minyan or to hold yeshivah studies), and moreover that anyone who states that they have bitachon and makes light of medical directives is a rodef and one must report them to the authorities.

The reversal was inevitable. Coronavirus is sweeping through charedi communities like - well, like the plague. Although charedim form only 10% of the population in Israel, they are fully 50% of coronavirus cases. Bnei Brak has the highest per capita rate of infection in all Israel.

In part, this is not their fault - it's a result of their living in more crowded communities. But it's also because of the so-called rabbinic leadership in the chareidi world by Rav Chaim Kanievksy, Rav Gershon Edelstein and others. When everyone was shouting at charedim to close the shuls and yeshivos, Rav Chaim Kanievsky was enthusiastically quoted by Roshei Yeshivah as saying that closing the yeshivos is more dangerous than coronavirus, since yeshivos actually protect against it.

This may be the first time in history that someone widely seen as a Gadol B'Torah has effectively described himself as a rodef.

Now there will immediately be people protesting that one cannot blame Rav Chaim - he simply wasn't aware of the recent gravity of the situation. But everyone else was! Frankly, I couldn't care less whether Rav Chaim is personally responsible or not. The problem is not Rav Chaim, per se; it's with an entire society that considers him to be a "leader," and promotes him as such.

We all know about how, prior to the Holocaust, various rabbinic leaders urged their followers to stay in Europe. But this is something happening right now, for all to see. Everyone else was warning that the charedi approach would lead to death, but they didn't have "Daas Torah," so their opinion didn't count. Until Daas Torah suddenly came to the shocking realization that they were actually correct.

As Rav Aharon Lichtenstein ztz"l said - if there is no Daas, then there is no Daas Torah. And as Rav Eliezer Melamed, shlitasaid - "I don't consider (charedi Gedolim) to be Gedolei Torah... Gadlut beTorah necessitates an all-embracing, fully accountable handling of serious issues facing the generation, including: the attitude towards Am Yisrael in all its diversity and various levels – both religious, and non-religious; the attitude towards mitzvoth of yishuv haaretz (settling the Land) and the on-going war which has surrounded it for over a century; the attitude towards science and work, and the contemporary social and economic questions."

What is "Daas Torah" worth, when the average non-charedi, non ben-Torah, was correct, and Daas Torah was wrong, in a life-and-death matter?!


idolatry said...

Our “morality” industry is the most responsible for sexual exploitation and deaths (plus suicides). The 3 mortal sins we need to die for and not violate, they promote.

This “industry” should be less concerned about acquiring power (gate-keeping morality, also known as elitism/idolatry/daas torah) and more concerned about coaching all of us on better ways to build trust and innovate win-win solutions to our problems. As per Hillel.

In our new world, “gate-keeping” between cultural divides is becoming difficult. It's becoming self-evident that we have one team, one morality and one God.

astoche said...

ok, so call it emunas chachamim. It exists. Are you really telling me that you never heard of the concept? How many sources do you want?

Specifically, the Be'er Moshe talks about it, specifically in conjunction with the mageifos that have hit klal yisrael in our history.

feel free to be in touch to discuss it

Dusiznies said...

To astoche said...
I know more "sources than you" ....
re-read my post ....
I said that term wasn't used at all ....
Yes you will find it in Seforim ... but people didn't use it ...
The Litvaks and the Yeshivishe World made that up to lift up their Roshei Yeshivah ....
The Sefarim including the "be'er Moshe" discuss it as a universal acceptance ...
we don't have that today and we didn't have that in the last 70 years..

RightJew said...

One can believe that chachamim do exist who possess more wisdom than the average person. That doesn't mean those chachamim are infallible.

However Natan Slifkin's smug, gloating, elitist attitude towards masses of Chareidim who are dying or facing death, while expressing not the slightest sorrow or compassion for them, is utterly despicable!

May Hashem show mercy to all the Jews and to all the decent, suffering persons on this planet, and may He wreak vengeance on the evil Chinese Communists who caused this disaster.

Anonymous said...

astoche, emunas chachamim?

We follow Moishe Rabbeinu and Hillel because they were humble and their definition of emunah (faith) was in God.

Not people in between (idolatry) with police escorts.

Huh? said...

"I grew up in a generation led by ...

R' Moshe Feinstein, Rav Henkin, Rav Gustman.....I never ever heard the term "Daas Torah" until way after I became a grandfather!"

"This was made up by the Litvaks .... the Yeshivishe Oilom"

If it was made up by Litvaks, why didn't you hear it from Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Gustman, Rav Henkin....???

Your words are inconsistent, lacking.

FYI said...

"Rav Parlor"

I think you meant "Rav Paler".

joe said...

Every word of DIN is 100% correct and true

I am too from the same generation

You bet DIN got it right this time as he does most of the time!

Anonymous said...

I'm now a senior , son of Holocaust survivors and grew up with survivors from different countries, customs and languages. We also had a fair share of American born people living among us.
We never heard this term "Daas Torah" until about 15 years ago when the Yishivishe world began to use it to the extent that even the chassidishe world is now using it.
I learned in several yeshivos under numerous rabeim, roshei yeshiva right through Bet Midrash , when the prevailing Daas Torah said to train for a job and go to work. Which I did. We never heard this phrase Daas Torah from any of them.
My limited research on this subject shows that it was a phrase used in certain circles in Lithuanian yeshivos 80 years ago, even though it may have been written someplace.
. So now, this was regurgitated for reasons which I"m suspecting but won't discuss now. Suffice it to say, that the Daas Torah to which I adhere may be different than yours. There's no such thing as a group of rabbonim someplace and proclaimimg rulings and calling it Daas Torah.
Emunas chachamim connotes , to my understanding, something of a different order. Daas Torah connotes an order..!! This is Daas Torah..!! Says who?

Take the case of Rav Moshe Feinstein Z"L . He was a great posek , but some call him the posek hador of the last generation.
There's no such thing as the posek hador, unless it's the Sanhedrin sitting in the Lishkas Hagaziz in the Bes Hamikdash.
Many, especially in the chassidishe circles, disagreed with many of Reb Moshe's psaks. So it was his Daas Torah vs. theirs.
But everybody believed in him as far as emunas chachamim is concerned, since he was a great tzaddik and talmid chacham.

the derby

Dusiznies said...

Re-read my post ....
this "daas torah" business was pushed by the Litvishe & Yeshivisha world ..... long after R' Moshe was niftar
this is a recent invention

Anonymous said...

"Rav Parlor"
Where was he rabbi???
You did not even know his name, yet you know whether he ever mentioned daas torah?
Small example of your knowledge.
P.S Try not to be so pompous.

astoche said...

its like arguing, lihavdil, if it is called ISIS or ISIL.

emunas chachamim means trusting in true Chachamim, even if they say that left is right and right is left. dont call it daas torah if you never heard of the term.

policemen call cars, vehicles, and only vehicles. they dont use the word car. okay......who cares? it's the same thing they are discussing.

The bottom line is that you dont believe we should trust any gedolei hador nowadays, saying there is no such thing as daas torah, because its really called emunas chachamim is splitting hairs.

i also love the way that you show that you learn Torah Likanter, starting off with saying that you know more sources than me. I am not here trying to show that im smarter than you, neighbor, do you really think im trying to do that?

Dusiznies said...

I misspelled the name ...but I actually learned by him for many years ... and the word "daas Torah" never passed his lips .....

To astoche....
You maybe a "smarter" than me.... but you didn't get what I wrote....
This is not like "arguing ISIS or ISIL"
The post is actually saying that "enunas Chachamim" is now out the window....
Since R' Kanievski first said that the "Yeshivos should stay open, under all circumstances" and then He changed his mind ....
That's ok ... but that he means
he actually knows nothing
he can no longer be relied on since he knows nothing
he really never said anything the first time and never said anything the second time ...
but his einikel R' Yaakov the one with the smart phone ...yes him... ...he is the one that makes it all up as he goes along ...
and first lied that his grandfather said all "Yeshivas should stay open" and then lied again when there was an outcry and said his grandfather said to close the yeshivos. .
and so the truth is ....
that there is no "emunas Chaachamim" anymore because the "askanim" call the shots .... and the Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivah really no as much as us ... but really less because us shmoes really know more since we are on Social media and hear many are dying and how dangerous this really is ...

astoche said...

ok. you are still coming from the point of view of "i know more torah than you."

how are you any better than all the "rabbis" who go around giving lectures for money, not practicing what they preach, who use their "knowledge" as a way of lording themselves over others?

its called learning likanter, for personal gain and to put down others, which is how you replied to the conversation, by saying that you know more sources than me.

Isnt that the kind of "talmid chacham" that it is better if his amneotic sac would have imploded on him?

Bottom line, you are blind to your own issues, like every person who has a particular issue. you are blind to your own faults.

as you bash "rabonim," you should really take a look in the mirror and realize that you are a person who tries to use your knowledge to put other down.

in fact, you know exactly who i am, and you already know that i know who you are, yet you continue to be a shmuck.

all who read this- imagine you are friendly with someone, and then you send him a post on his blog, and hes a shmuck and nasty in response. and then you say, hold on, buddy, arent you a good friend of the family? and arent we friends?

and then he continues to be a nasty shmuck.

this is who you are dealing with. we have known each other for years, there has been no impetus for the nastiness that i have received from din, even as he continued to daven in my shul, saying good shabbos to him as he walked by.

but here he is, the never ending pessimist and trash talker. it is what we call mavhil al haraayon.

seriously look back and think, from what point did i become such a shmuck to my neighbors, and for what reason?

In the past, wWhat caused you to attempt to put me down, for the mere fact that my grandparents did not die in the holocaust? (they only survived in the forest, because they got out early, probably without asking advice from rabanim, which probably saved their lives.) according to you, unless i have murdered grandparents, i am worthless. (ignoring the fact that what you are basically then saying to my father is, since your parents did not die in the holocaust, you are worthless.)

you just dont think things through, or you have become a split personality type by becoming a totally different persona on your blog.

you cant blame me for trying to fly your son back to america, thinking that is what he needed, not realizing that it was the wrong decision? you were already nasty to me from the time you still lived in the neighborhood, which is when you made the holocaust comment.

someone who is nasty to people who look up to them, and is nasty to people who are only friends with them, has some serious issues.

astoche said...

classic farkrumt argument.

first you say daas torah doesnt exist, and then you say it exists, but its out the window.

thats like when i told apikorsim that the zohar is true and valid, and they said, nu uh, rav moshe even he doesnt learn it because its too holy.

so i responded, obviously it has tons of worth and is very holy, if rav moshe said that the zohar is to lofty, even for him. they shot themselves in the foot.

so did you.

pscyho 101 said...

So .. astoche
DIN seems to know who you are but I don't know you from a hole in the wall.

So you are exactly what you accuse DIN of you so arrogantly write

"rabbis" who go around giving lectures for money, not practicing what they preach, who use their "knowledge" as a way of lording themselves over others?"

So it's ok for you to give him and us mussar while you can put down others
So how are you different?

The next time you visit your shrink .... from your comments I can see that you are deranged , ask him how he would classify you?

I'm not a shrink ....but I would classify you as a "Masochist" since as you claim that DIN dunks you under the water and bashes you ... yet you keep coming back for more abuse.....

I've seen your comments before ... and you keep mussering us about Loshon Hara ...and you not only read this stuff but you keep commenting ...why don't you look in the mirror and be the first to do teshuvah and maybe just maybe we will follow your lead...
how about that?

Mossad said...

It seems from your comments that you know who DIN is ....
and you know that DIN chooses for whatever reason to remain anonymous.... correct?
then how can you be so cruel and nasty to try to expose him....??
This is DIN's blog and he writes his opinion.... you can argue with him all you want but at the end of the day .its his blog why do you keep coming back?
What is it with you that compels you like a drug to see what he is writing?
There are million of blogs out there .... why don't you just move on??
If as you say DIN knows who you are why don't you email him or call bim privately?
DIN can delete your comments and he chooses to publish your nonsense anyway ....
Why don't you just go away ...

Anonymous said...

I have been reading the comments above with interest, because my father knows DIN very well and they speak on the phone once every 3 weeks .....and what's interesting is that they do not agree on anything..nothing at all, they have nothing in common at all yet my father says that he has the "utmost respect for him" and that he is as polite as an "Englishman" My father does read the blog and jots down what he want to talk to him about and then they talk, they argue but they love each other
I think that if you would be less annoying he would listen to you and if as you say that you know each other than why as someone suggested dont you take this up with him personally from what my father says he is a "makir be'talmeidei chachamin" and is always open to listen .. and from your comments you may want to see whether you really have "a cruel" streak in you since you act like you are better than him and yet you somehow push in personal stuff that has nothing to do with the post
and why do you care? Why do you care that he tells you off? Who took your self-esteem... It's a blog for heaven sense ..we don't know who you are why is this always personal ..he holds that "there isn't such a thing as Daas Torah" and you think that there is even though you yourself mock other rabbis , so who cares, its only a discussion, and to DIN I want to say Dont publish his stuff he takes it personally

Anonymous said...

Rav ahron soloveichik talks about daas torah, he holds of it, and defines what it is and what it is not (First 20 minutes)