You must have heard about the Chareidie Concerts with Chareidie performers like MBD that refuse to perform in mixed crowds..... ....
Cites like Haifa refused them separate seating in public venues ..... ...
You also must have noticed that I didn't blog about the issue ....
Why? You ask?
The simple answer is that Chareidim don't care either way ... they go to the movies, ball games, theaters and sit in mixed company constantly .......
It's only the performers that act like tzaddikim to impress those who never even go to concerts ....
All people going to concerts want to sit with their families ... that's the whole point of going out and spending some quality time in a nice setting .......
17 comments:
To DIN
Mixed vs separate, I'm not defending either position here. But it's strange how you so easily throw all the chareidim all in the same basket.
So because 1000 chareidim eat chocolate chip cookies, this means that all the chareidim eat chocolate chip cookies ?
"All people going to concerts want to sit with their families ?"
Really ? How can you be so sure ? Only a fraction of the chareidim/chassidim go to concerts and seat mixed.
Halocho remains halocho, and mixed seating remain forbiden.
https://larrynoodles.com/noodles-victorious-against-the-greer-goat/
Notis from Telz is still defending child rapist Greer.
Notis skipped New Haven where Greer was his yeshiva's landlord after Noodles tipped off State authorities that Notis could not legally operate his yeshiva there. Notis then transplanted his yeshiva to Amish country in Lancaster County PA.
Pinny Lipschutz has been farkoyfing the yeshiva in Lancaster & even trying to convince baal habatim to move out there. But Pinny gives zero indication the yeshiva is for oisvorff and dropout types, some with substance addictions.
Zako
Show me where it says in Shulchan Aruch that mixed seating is forbidden?...
We are all waiting with bated breaths.......
BTW ... Since I am such a nice guy I'll let you search the entire Mishna Berurah as well ....
Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Aron Kotler sat in mixed dinners ...
In fact until recently the Lakewood dinners were mixed ....
I believe both R' Moshe and R' Aron were Shomrei Torah Umitzvois .......
Separate seating only is from Chassidishe influence.
R' Nosson Wachtfogel ztl was refusing to attend any simcha with mixed seating until another talmid of yeshivos in the Heim reminded him that chassunos in Lita were mixed seating. So R' Nosson concurred & gave up the chumra.
That said, there is a type of mixed also assur for Litvisher. There is a krumma rabbi in the 5 Towns who makes events in spaces so inappropriately small that it's like trying to squeeze 10 ounces into a 2 ounce bottle. There are wall to wall people with male-female bodychecking like you've never seen by any hockey game. It is a pathetic sight that even includes loads of what is virtually "twerking". Chashuve Yidden have tried speaking to this rabbi but he is dismissive or even combative when approached.
Where is my old pal "Taliban" Friedman when you need him? I feel like ganging up on Lipa Schmeltzer again just for old times sake to grab a mic or anything else he is holding out of his hands!
https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/11/26/satmar-hassids-disappointed-after-rebbes-visit-brings-little-financial-relief/
Did they go to mixed concerts? You think a yeshiva dinner has the same amount of liveliness as a concert?
Remember the gemara in sukkah about the ezras nashim
3:35
The gemara in sukka about the Ezras Nashim actually proves my point .....
It was only on Sukkos that they separated the men and women in the Bais Ha'Mikdash ....not even on Pesach and Shevuois
maybe because the men were carrying big lulavim ;)
The halacha to separate men from women has nothing to do with "liveliness" ... it has to do with concentrating on your davening ....
separating men from women at the dancing is because they shouldn't come to dance together
at a concert people sit with their families .......
stopping adding your own pshat .....
Anonymous Imitation equals flattering DIN
Yup Israel Hayom Quoting DIn ..... ...
Finally we are recognized ...
but they didn't give me credit ....
should I sue?
https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/11/26/satmar-hassids-disappointed-after-rebbes-visit-brings-little-financial-relief/
In very Torahdik communities like Boro Park / Flatbush, etc, the rabbonim have the right to draw the line that while you cannot asser mixed by Litvish chassunos which is simcha shel mitzva where people are more likely to behave themselves, you cannot have mixed by a non-mitzva music concert where there is a more frivolous atmosphere that can induce misbehavior.
When they stopped Yerachmiel Begun from going ahead in 1990s Flatbush without a mechitza, there were very reasonable gedolim who never signed on to any fanatical nonsense who agreed that a music concert in BP / Flatbush has to have a mechitza.
That "Taliban" Friedman shvantz incidentally showed up with a sidekick one day to pontificate to R' Zelig Epstein zl about across the board bans. R' Zelig told them off that they only care about being vilda kanoyim, not what elterra rabbonim think, so he threw the idiots out!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_(1995_film)
Isn't Israel Hayom owned by billionaire Shelly Adelson? He may figure no one will dare sue him!
And huge fakers who act like the shpitz yeshivishe & heimishe in Flatbush were sneaking late at night into Blockbuster and Hollywood Video back in the day on Kings Highway. Today they just stream the latest prusta movies while hiding bchadrei chadorim.
They include that Dudi S. jerk who is always hosting parlor meetings for mosdos.
To DIN and To Taaruvos (1:09am)
https://www.torahmusings.com/2005/09/mixed-seating-at-weddings
See also
(38) Sefer Hapardes (Rashi) page 72:29 - Sefer Chassidim 393:page 103 - Yam Shel Shlomo Gittin 1:18 - Kesubos 1:20 - Bach E.H. 62 - Be'er Heitiv E.H. 62:11 - Bach Hachadoshes Y.D. 55:page 114 - Bais Shmuel E.H. 62:11 - Chasam Sofer C.M. 190:page 71 - Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 149:1 - Orchos Tzaddikim simcha page 67 - Pela Yoetz Chosson:page 249 - Yeuhda Yaaleh 2:45:5 - Ahavas Chesed 3:6:in footnote :page 286 - Yabea Omer E.H 3:10:9 - Natei Gavriel Nesuin 43:1, 94:3 - Minhag Yisroel Torah Nesuin pages 210-212 - Birchos Chasanim page 223:45:footnote 101 - refer to Shulchan Aruch 529:4 - Mishnah Berurah 22 - Shar Ha'tzyion 21. (39) O.C. minhagim 36. (40) Lev Avraham 1:135 - Vayivorech Dovid E.H. 1:121:page 12 - Oz Nedberu 12:47. (41) Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 1:39, 1:41 - Be'er Moshe ibid - Teshuvos V'hanhugos 2:651 - Natei Gavriel Nesuin 39:2 - Journal Of Halacha and Contemporary Society 35:pages 34-35 - Shearim Metzuyanim B'halacha 149:1.
Some Chassidim have a wall between men and women (Yisroel Kedoshim pages 72-74). One should not let the women come to the men's side of the hall (Ibid). It goes without saying that it is absolutely forbidden to have mixed dancing at a wedding (Refer to Ben Ish Chai Shoftim 1:18 - Shiurei Beracha E.H. 21:1 - Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152:13 - Biur Halacha 339 "l"hukel" - Aruch Ha’shulchan 529:7, E.H. 65:3 - Igros Moshe E.H. 1:97, 2:13, O.C. 2:30, 4:35 - Minchas Yitzchok 3:109:1, 3:111 - Be'er Moshe 4:147:31:page 236 - Soveh Simchas 1:14:page 194 - Nesuin K'hilchosom 13:26 - Halichos Bas Yisroel 7:16 - Yugel Yaakov pages 237-241:footnote 325 - Yabea Omer 1:30:15).
One is allowed to stay at a mixed wedding as long as he or she does not dance (Halichos Bas Yisroel 7:footnote 35). If a Yid wants to dance by a mixed wedding he should not take off his yarmulka (Igros Moshe Y.D. 2:33, see Yugel Yaakov page 232).
One should not rent a hall to people if there will be mixed dancing (Igros Moshe Y.D. 1:72, O.C. 4:35). (42) Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita, see Minhag Yisroel Torah Nisuin pages 210-212, Divrei Shalom 6:130. (43) Yabea Omer E.H. 3:10:9 - Vayivorech Dovid E.H. 1:121 - Be'er Moshe 4:147:31. (44) Refer to Srdei Eish 1:page 216:5 - Asei Lecha Rav 3:40, 8:22, see Natei Gavriel Nesuin 18:1. (45) Vayivorech Dovid ibid:page 12. (46) Refer to Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society 35:page 61.
One should not go to the women's section to call his wife, rather a young child should be sent (V'ein Lumo Michshal 5:page 272).
Look, it is almost certain that most Rabbonim agree that strictly speaking there is nothing in Halocha that would prohibit mixed seating at any event. However, there is a very small minority practice that will avoid mixed seating even at their own Shabbos table with their own families! This seems to be a development that has been introduced into our society in relatively recent times.
One can only speculate why this is so. Perhaps, because in recent times secular society (and by extension spilling over into our environment) has become so overly sexually charged, there is an overreaction in the other direction. Some Rabbis may have become sensitive to changing times and mores and are therefore inclined to avoid temptation or even the slightest suspicion of inappropriate behavior. See for yourselves how many reports of salacious activities have been committed by members of the Charadi community.
It therefore should come as no surprise that considering the current style of Jewish music, some performers bend over backwards so as not to offend.
As far as I am concerned, all people should be free to exercise their religious concerns in whatever manner they wish, regardless as to whether it conforms to my own level of religiosity. If performers insists that will only perform before a female audience if they are wearing a bag over their heads, that is their business and no one elses.
Finally, if people in general were to behave in a sincerely appropriate fashion perhaps there would be no need for chumras in excess of what is halachicaly mandated.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1764435/billionaire-casino-mogul-sheldon-adelson-visits-ponevezh-yeshiva-photos-video.html
Zako
I knew it ....you couldn't find even ONE source that states that you cannot sit mixed .....
all those sources speak about mixed DANCING ....
you quote an Igros Moshe .... that IM speaks about MIXED DANCING .... R' Moshe himself sat at mixed weddings and mixed dinners ....
It's ain ldavar sof
There are farfrumt or farchenyokt kollel guys & yeshiva rebbeyim who do not allow bochurim to sit at their Shabbos tish once the daughters are 9 years old. The real fanatics also ban married men and sometimes only altz the rebbitzen even if there are no daughters.
This is chiefly from cult yeshivos like Philly and Staten Island. But it can sometimes come from a yeshiva that is only semi-cultish like Scranton if the fanatic is a dimwit or weirdo who tries to out-Philly Philly. And you can of course see it from a yeshiva like Torah Or that transforms FFBs into de facto BTs.
In one yeshiva there was a long running butt of jokes with a rebbi who made exceptions only if the bochur was of age to be a possible shidduch prospect one day in the future for his daughters - BUT the potential mechuton had to have a balance sheet reflecting multi-millionaire or higher! I kid you not! Hypocrite or pragmatist? I'll let you be the judge.
One scary sight back in the day was a kollel yungerman who today is one of the Menahelim in Breuers. A very insecure man who to put it diplomatically needs a refuah shlayma. He put his wife in the kitchen. That wasn't enough so he installed a shower-like curtain at the kitchen entrance. He nebich must have suffered from a lot of stress because while he pontificated the whole time how his very mediocre alma mater yeshiva was the greatest show on Earth, he would constantly monitor if wifey was being bad and leaving the curtain partially open. It was getting hard to count how many times the neurotic nut had to interrupt his propaganda to lunge at the kitchen to pull the curtain back. And if it was Miss America he was trying to sequester that would be ein zach ...
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