Thursday, September 11, 2014

Satmarism vs Zionism Part 3 .... "Israeli Flag is Avoda Zara"

Recently, Satmar published a booklet,  שמעו דבר ה׳  a transcript of Reb Yoel Teitelbaum's Shalosh Seudois Torelech given during and  immediately after the 6 day war, in 1967. The booklet is accompanied with an MP3 which is an actual  recording of the Rebbe speaking on Shabbos at Shaloish Seudois.
Notice the arrogant title of the booklet: "Listen to the Words of Hashem," as if the Satmar Shitah is the words of Hashem!

Click on link to read Part 1
Part 1 Titled: Chabad Shasai Tzvi?" was posted on Sept 7

Part 2 Titled "Zionists Started the 6 Day War "was posted on Sept 8

PART 3 Titled "Israeli Flag is Avoda Zara"

In this segment on page 44 of the booklet, the Rebbe says that the Israeli flag is an a Avoda Zarah!

So before I translate what the Rebbi said, I will give you a background of the Israeli flag, to put the flag situation  into perspective!

The Torah assigns great importance to flags (Bamidbar, Ch2)
Long before the Shevotim even needed flags, Yaakov Aveenu fixed the color and design of each flag (Rashi, Horoyaois 6b)
Moshe Rabeinu introduced a general flag for all of Israel. When the Jews left Egypt, they raised a national banner symbolizing their independence, as the Ramban writes :" The children of Israel made for themselves a flag and a banner to raise high" (Ramban, v5).

All of this demonstrates that a Jewish flag is a purely religious concept. Now that we have been privileged to return to our Homeland, we must raise our flag anew with great joy. Unfortunately, we have no tradition as to the colors and design of Moshe's flag. If we knew what that flag looked like, we would certainly, and gladly use it as our State's symbol.

For hundreds of years, the Magen Dovid has been the most unmistakable Jewish symbol around. The Magen Dovid symbolizes Hashem's dominion over the heavens, the earth, and the four corners of the world. It bears the name of Dovid Hamelech, who always trusted Hashem and, therefore, never feared mortal kings.

Thus, when choosing the flag of the Jewish people, we would certainly place in its center this ancient and familiar Jewish symbol. This would demonstrate that we do not rely on our military prowess alone, but primarily on the Rock of Israel, as Dovid Hamelech did. 

To express our commitment to Mitzvos, we would naturally choose a Mitzvah that represents the entire Torah, which is the Mitzvah of Tzizit (Rashi Bamidbor v41) 
What better way to express our commitment to Torah and Mitzvos than by representing the Tzizit on our flag, Therefore, it was fitting to decorate the flag with two stripes, like the stripes on our Talis.

We would also choose a color that represents the Schchina. Techelet, light blue, is such a color, as the Chazal say "techelis resembles the sea, which resembles the sky, which resembles Hashem's throne of glory" (Sotah 17a).
Techeilis resembles Hashem's garments (Bamidbar Rabbah 14:3), and it was used to cover the Holy Aron (Bamidbar 4:6). The Midrash states, "When the people of Israel look at the blue string, it appears to them as if the Shechinah is in their midst" (Tanchuma, Shelach 30).

How surprising it is, then, that the creators of the Israeli flag, who did not define themselves as frum Jews, designed the most religious flag possible.
David Wolfson, a delegate at the First Zionist Congress in 1897, explained why Herzl chose to adorn the flag with two blue stripes, to resemble the stripes of the Talis.

So even if the founder of the State defined themselves as secularists, they harbored religious motives deep in their hearts.

No Jew keeps all 613 mitzvos, not even the Chassidim, not the Litvishe, and not the secularists. Everyone, on his or her own level, struggles with their Yetzer Hara!

Long ago, lived the Navi Hoshia who became very distressed by the rebellious behavior of the Jewish people. He suggested that 
G-D exchange them for another nation that would keep His Mitzvos more faithfully (Pesachim 87a). Hashem commanded him to marry a prostitute and subsequently evict her and their shared children. Thus, Hoshia learned that Hashem will never exchange us for another nation, just as a father would never trade his children for someone else's, even if they sin.

Today's Jews, as well, are Hashem's beloved children. The flag represents the nation, which for the most part, does not outwardly define itself as observant. Nonetheless, this is the nation that Hashem chose and loves. 

Our current task is not to denounce the new-found expression of nationalism, but to teach our brethren, with great love and faith, the true essence of Judaism.
The State of Israel is a foundation upon which Jewish nationalism can develop.  
The flag, does not represent the essence of the State, rather the essence of the Jewish people who live there.
It is true that most Jews living there are not frum, and maybe even anti-frum, but they are our brethren and this is our situation, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.

We are not going to get any Jew closer to Hashem by calling them "Koifrem" and "Rashaim" heretics and evil!

Now read what the Rebbe said in 1967, at Shalosh Seudois, following the 6 day war in reference to the flag!

Loose translation: 
Note: Some words cannot be literally translated, for example when the Rebbe says "geshmadt" it would mean in another context "converted,"  but here he means that they went off the derech or destroyed" So we used the words "destroyed" instead!

" The truth is that the greatest Avoda Zara are the Zionists themselves, The flag that brought so much heresy (kefirah) onto the world .... so many Jews destroyed (geshmadt) , ... 80% of Klall Yisroel they converted into heretics..... 
Entire countries they destroyed ... (they destroyed) the youth with their books ...and what they are doing now over there with force.. 
they killed many millions, this is all with their contaminated ideology of the Medina!
They place the flag in a holy place, woe to our eyes that have seen this!
What we have to live thru in this generation. Caused by our sins!
This is the pain of the days of Moshiach, woe to us that we have to live to hear all this!
There are those who see fit that the flag should remain...they want to place the flag in the Holy Place, .... 
well, That (the flag) is equivalent as a cross placed  in the Holy of Holies!
Not only is the flag like a cross but far worse, it is the Avoda Zara, itself, placed in the holy place...
Whoever thinks like this (to fly the flag) is not a Jew!"

The Rebbe, as you see, doesn't want to be confused by the facts!
"80% of Klall Yisroel" were converted to heretics by the Zionists???  
Didn't the Haskala movement convert frum people into heretics way before Zionism.... Most Haskala guys were actually against having a State! 
They were happy, like Satmar, living in Roumania!
The Flag is "avoda zara?" 
Maybe worshipping the Rebbe is "avoda zara"! 
I say the anti-Zionist idology by Satmar and now the Yeshivishe world is the new "avoda zara!"
I'll take the flag! You can "chop" herring "sherayim!"


Anonymous said...

"...Whoever thinks like this (to fly the flag) is not a Jew!..."

Really !
My Torah says one born of a Jewish mother is a Jew.
My little Israeli flag , along with the American flag on my desk, waves in the breeze from the nearby open window.
Oh, by the way, my mother was Jewish.

The Israeli flag... Long may it wave...

the Derby... Manhigim, please step forward. The fanatics are at the gates. Help !!

Taking out of context said...

Just for the sake of clarity and an honest understanding of the Rebbe's words. The Rebbe is from a culture very different from the culture of the blog owner and readers. The language is different as you yourself pointed out with the word geshmadt. It is the rebbe's style, and because of the nature of the mama lushon and culture of his flock, that he spoke with exaggerated terms. His people knew what he meant, which words are to be take literally, which figuratively, and which with understanding that he is using extreme words. It's like when a speaker screams for the sake of drama. You are taking his words out of context. He was certainly against Zionism in a big way, but the term Avoda Zara was certainly not meant in the literal Halachic sense by any stretch of the imagination. His followers know that and even you know it too.

Anonymous said...

so what's literal @ what's not?
Are you his Rashi?

Anonymous said...

פרק יא משנה יא. חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם

Dusiznies said...

To 11:02
The rabbi paskened le'halacha that Zionism and the flag are avoda Zara in every respect
I will show you that , as I continue my series of
satmerism vs Zionism

Taking out of context said...

You show me that he meant it literally by quoting more words which were meant in the same way as these were.

I know of an instance where a known outspoken Zionist came to the Rebbe in dire need of money, so knowing that the Rebbe was a very big Baal chesed, broke his pride. The Rebbe helped him with a large sum of money. When someone asked the Rebbe why he acted with such compassion toward this Zionist who mocks his words regularly, he answered Essen Kimt Em (food he deserves) Now the Rebbe knew the Halacha that Minim are Moridin Velo Maalin, and even a simple Mumar is Lo Maalin, so obviously he did not consider this person to be that Halachically even though he was an outspoken Zionist.

Anonymous said...

very impressive that he gave a hungry Jew to eat, something we am haratzim never would have thought of.
So aZionist is a mumar too and halachically you have to be morid him , something we amharatzim also didn't know.
Your story is all fiction .

Taking out of context said...

It's not fiction. It's well known by everyone who is in the know about The Satmar Rebbe that he did tremendous Chesed to any Jew including Zionists. You call it fiction because it makes you more comfortable to do so, because it allows you to maintain your hatred against this denomination of our Jewish brothers. But the Satmar Rebbe, while he was very sharp and outspoken about his position, treated every Jew with care and love, even Zionist. Even while he was fighting them fiercely about their position, he still treated them with love and mercy on a personal level.

You write 'So aZionist is a mumar too and halachically you have to be morid him'. That's exactly the opposite of what I said. Your hatred is so important for you to hold on to, that you will shamelessly twist my words in public in order to do so.

Dusiznies said...

To 10:37
I know Goyishe doctors and nurses that treat Jews, that's also chesed!
You say the Rebbe helped Zionists?
How many Zionists help his chassidim in Bnei Brak? HMMMMM?
And didn't the Zionists save his life by giving him a seat on the train that saved his life?
Oh... he did chesed with a Zionist? I'm impressed ... he helped another Jew!
Crazy stuff here!

Taking out of context said...


Here you revert to sarcasm and change the subject to avoid the point of discussion. I made my point clearly. Admit please.

Anonymous said...

You're baking a creamy, 4-layered bar mitzvah cake with its chocolate tfillin out of a box of Goodman's lukshen.

Minim, mordim, Zionists,halacha, someone asked him,Baal Chesed, lo maalin, etc. etc etc.
Not only does a good person feed a hungry human being of ANY kind, but as you know, feed his pony even before he sits down to his Cheerios and prune juice at breakfast.
Now let me tell you a story about my mother who was nobody's rebetzin and didn't know from mordim and mumars from any end.

Years ago at a bungalow colony ( I was there at that moment), a collector showed up, mom who was just finishing making latkes gave him some tzeddakah. On his way out, he said something about how good it smells. Getting the hint, mom sat him down and gave him a plateful of hot latkes.
To her dying day, she never knew if he was a chassid, litvak, Zionist, mumar, Amish,or poet.
No tarrarram...No pshetlach, no toileh'lech, no questions, no nothing. Had I not been there, I never would've even known this happened.
My father, on the other hand, would sometimes steal a dollar from his meager earnings and sneak it to a poor person w/o my mom knowing. No nosy question asking gabboim as to why.
I don't need stories that don't impress. I have my role models.
Myriads of readers , I'm sure, have their own experiences too. Thanks anyway.

the Derby

Anonymous said...


Of course, halchically, the gentleman may even drink his prune juice before feeding his Chihuahua, but this morning due to constipation issues, he decided to have it with his cereal along with some pot cheese.
So please spare stories and gasping ga-ga-swooning little meisalach about who drank what in presence of which obese gabboim.

the Derby... do they still sell pot cheese?

Taking out of context said...

Are you folks deliberately missing my point? Is this the way of your dishonest demagoguery? Or are you folks simply not bright enough to follow a conversation and understand what's being said?

I was not telling an impressive story. If I wanted to impress about The Satmar Rebbe, there are plenty of impressive stories of true Mesiras Nefesh. I was showing that The Rebbe did not really consider Zionists Ovdei avoda zara in the halachic sense, because he would not have given tzedaka to a person that the halacha clearly dictates lo maalin. So when he used extreme language, it was not meant in the literal sense. He did not really mean to say that it is halachically avoda zara. We all understood what he meant, and so does anybody with even the slightest intelligence. The blog owner here knows this and so do most of the readers. You are deliberately taking his words out of their context and intended meaning, in order to build your case against him.

Anonymous said...

A good person does NOT feed a hungry person of any kind. A good person does NOT feed the IS journalist beheader, no matter how hungry he is and no matter how he begs for food. Nor does a good person feed the enemies of Hashem for whom the rule lo maalin applies.

Anonymous said...

Derby is on a MISSION, (missionary?), his anti satmar rantings aren't working aint convincing anyone, on the contrary, its showing to even those few (if there are even a few), that haven't abandoned him, that he is a cheap selfish biased kal shebekalim, who will do anything and this includes ANYTHING, to try to save his kefira deos, from being seen as what they really are, he stoops down to the sewer, knowingly, just to save face. its not working, we ALL see through you, your agenda, of seeing no wrongs by reshaim, & at the same time only seeing evil by tzaddikim. you're so laughingly transparent, you are a spoiled selfish immoral koifer, and a cheap one at that.

Anonymous said...

Well said, derby is clearly losing the few people who gave him the benefit of the doubt, gam evil macharish chacham yechashev, smart words from the 'chacham mikol Adam', shlomo hamelech, derby would do himself a big favor, if he would heed those words. Hey nobody but NOBODY is being fooled by your biased prejudiced rantings, the hate you have to toras emes is so obvious, remaining quiet is your only option.

Anonymous said...

Wow!!!!! Wow!!!!!, am happy to see that the truth still reigns in these trying times, more power to these commentators, who stick to the true Torah values, & dont change the Torah to adapt to the latest fad, the latest style, or the newest 'rabbis' whim, this blog was primarily established, obviously, to make the owner feel good about himself, having abandoned many important mitzvos, feeling guilty about that, thinking that criticizing the satmar-litvish-lakewood-brisk etc. Torah true Jews, will sooth his guilty feelings, big mistake, its like putting a small bandaid over a hemmoraging wound.

Anonymous said...

That UGLY old geezer is an Avodah Zara
He saved his own skin under the "Zionist" flag and left most of his deranged followers to die in the holocaust.
But then again he was known as a rabble rouser in his younger years as well.