Tuesday, December 2, 2014

Minutes of Jewish Agency Executive Meeting , Jerusalem, May 25, 1944, Proves Rav Weissmandle Wrong!

A substantial part of the  Satmar SHIT"ah really stands on one "fact" ...that the Zionist Jewish Agency had no interest in saving Jews!

To support this accusation, the Satmar Rebbe, R' Yoel Teitelbaum, would quote  Rav Weissmandel's assertion that he saw a letter from  a Mr. Gruenbaum of the Jewish Agency, that said 
"Rak B'dam Tiyeh Lonu Haaretz" 
which translates as 
"Only with blood will we have a Land" 
in other words, "let the Jews die, so that the Nations of the world will have some sympathy and give us a State." 

This twisted thinking, gave birth to their belief that the Zionists had no interest in saving Jewish lives from the claws of the murderous Nazis! And not only didn't they do anything, but they impeded efforts on behalf of the doomed European Jews!

There is only one part of the puzzle missing ......
 The letter! 
In 70 years, no one can produce this letter....
Despite copious and detailed record keeping of The Jewish Agency, "the letter" has never been found!
And Rav Weissmandle himself never produced the letter!

To play the devil's advocate, maybe there was a letter but the Jewish Agency destroyed it ...
If that were in fact true, then we would find some evidence somewhere else that Mr. Gruenbaum's policy was not to help any Jews!
Also, where is the recipient of this letter? Why, in 70 years hasn't anyone come forward and say that they saw or that they were the recipient of that letter?

The truth is...that there is no letter, and there was no letter, and no one will ever in the future produce this letter.

The Jewish Agency, as I said above, kept meticulous notes of all meetings, even minutes of meetings that made The Jewish Agency look bad. There are thousands of documents recorded, yet there is no indication that they weren't going to do whatever was needed to help the Jews! There is no documentation anywhere in the thousands of Jewish Agency documents referring to that alleged notorious statement of Mr Guenbaum!

In fact just the opposite is true ..... read minutes of a meeting attended by Mr. Gruenbaum in May 25, 1944, and see All and I mean All who attended were trying to figure out ways how to save the Jews...
 Read what Mr. Gruenbaum actually said, referring to a proposal by Mr. Pomerantz, that Brand  keep negotiations open with Eichmann to stall him and actually offer him cash, since the US and the UK would never agree to supply the Wermacht with Trucks!

"We have to keep this game going as long as possible, although there is no doubt that nothing can possibly come of it. I consider it a satanic provocation meant to give them an opportunity to slaughter the Jews of Hungary. For this reason, we have to pretend that we are doing everything in this direction.
I believe Mr. Shertok should leave for Turkey at once and spend several days there; we should also state that one of our people is going to the United States. However, we must present one condition: the deportations have to stop immediately. And another: the first thousand Jews should be from Poland and not from Hungary.
They should also be allowed to negotiate for money and not for goods. I am sure the United States will not agree to this “trade,” but we must send someone to Turkey immediately, because that way we buy time."

This meeting was actually about the efforts of Julius Brand  to try to negotiate the lives of the Hungarian Jews!

It is also interesting to note at this time, that it was the Zionists who begged Jews from Hungary and Poland to run for their lives, and it was the Rabbis like Satmar and Belz, that told the doomed Jews to remain...
I'm not saying that the Rabbis had any bad intentions, but History now proves that the Rabbis were actually wrong.. and the Zionists were right!

Minutes of the crucial Jewish Agency Meeting that proves Rav Weissmandle and the Satmar Rebbe wrong!

Zionists Debate Rescue of Hungarian Jews

(May 25, 1944)

No. 48
Minutes of Meeting of the Jewish Agency Executive, Jerusalem, May 25, 1944
In attendance:
Mr. Ben-Gurion, Chairman
Mr. Gruenbaum
Mr. Kaplan
Dr. Shmurak
Mr. Shertok
Dr. Joseph
Mr. Shapira
Mr. Dobkin
Mr. Eisenberg
On the agenda: Rescue of Hungarian Jews
(Mr. Zeev Pomerantz, who had previously come from Turkey, entered.)
Mr. Pomerantz:
The matter on which I am about to report is extremely grave and extremely sensational. On March 19, 1944—the day the Germans entered Hungary, with no Hungarian resistance whatsoever (they talk about one shooting only)—persecution of the Jews began. The first to be interned were leaders of the leftist party and Polish and Hungarian Jews. Within the first three weeks, about 6,000 persons were removed from Hungary. Today, 300,000 Jews have been concentrated in Carpathian Ruthenia and Transylvania. The concentration camps are run by the Germans and the Hungarians.
Eight thousand Jews have been deported to Poland to date, and starting next week another 12,000 will be deported every day.
Several Hungarian Jews have been in contact with the German authorities. As we know, these contacts also took place in Slovakia and the deportations from that country were occasionally delayed because of them.
Now, three weeks ago, two of our comrades in Hungary, Mr. Joel Brand and Mr. R.Kastner, were summoned for a talk with the commander of the Gestapo, the well-known Eichmann. Krumi (Scherzer) Schreber, and Willi, whom we know from Slovakia, took part in this talk for the Gestapo. Eichmann bragged that he had executed three and a half million Jews. If the Jews wanted, he would now be willing to make a “deal” with them: goods instead of blood. Churchill, he said, wants to save the Jews. Roosevelt argues that the Jews are his. So, he said, the Gestapo is willing to give them the Jews, on the condition that they head for Portugal or Spain and not be routed to Palestine. In return, they want ten thousand trucks, to be used exclusively on the eastern front; eighty tons of coffee, twenty tons of tea, twenty tons of cocoa, and two million bars of soap. They are also willing to exchange Jews for German POWs.
This talk was followed by another three or four talks. They are willing to deliver the Jews to the border of Spain or Portugal. One of them blurted that they would also want a little money. They would release one hundred Jews for each truck delivered to them.
On Wednesday, we received a cable from Constantinople signed by Joel Brand, in which he advised that he would reach Constantinople on Friday. He asked to be provided with entrance visas. Indeed, on Friday afternoon, Joel Brand came to Constantinople with a German passport in the name of Eugen Band. From Budapest they took him to Vienna, where he slept in the Gestapo building. By Friday evening he had come to Constantinople, where he gave us the details. They also told him that, for the purpose of this offer, he would be allowed to visit Lisbon, Switzerland, and—by special permit—Palestine, too.
We asked him how he knew for sure that the proposal had come from the army. Eichmann, for example, said he was willing to be the first and to release ten thousand Jews, with payment to follow. Mr. Brand also reported that they had obtained a permit for six hundred Jews, who would be taken away as if for deportation but would be removed to Palestine en route . The unanswered question is whether Brand can come to Palestine with permission from the British authorities, on the condition that he can exit again. We made inquiries in Constantinople and reached the conclusion that we must first hand the matter over to the Executive, which will decide what to do next. Brand cabled Budapest this past Saturday, advising that he is coming to Ankara and that the negotiations are continuing.
In the meantime, the deportations from Hungary are proceeding. We decided to send one of our people to Palestine to report the matter to the Executive and to ask a member of the Executive to come to Turkey at once.
We asked whether they would allow one of us to visit Hungary, and they replied that it was not out of the question.
Brand was accompanied to Constantinople by a Hungarian who had been in our service and, with him, a group of important Hungarians. He also worked for the Germans and took part in the talks with Eichmann. The Germans told this Hungarian that a financial ransom might also be relevant, and when Brand asked about the price, he was told $500 per person. He—the Hungarian—offered $100. They forbade him to tell this to Brand.
On Sunday, they were about to make inquiries with the comrades in Budapest about the state of the deportations and concentrations. We also asked if it were possible to arrange to have the Swiss consul supervise the transports out of the country. There was also talk of a delegation of Gestapo people—Schroeder (this is not evidently his real name)—to continue the negotiations. It is not clear whether all the talks were conducted at the instructions of the high German authorities. The Hungarian, for example, advised that they had been authorized to conduct the talks at the highest echelons.
Mr. Brand explained that it was important to keep the negotiations going, because this would buy us time. And since it is important to play for time, it is essential for someone to travel to Ankara and for a member of the Executive to go to Turkey at once, because important things are happening there. Mr. Brand will return to Budapest over the next few days. If we advise him by cable that he should stay on for another few days, they will certainly let him do so. The comrades in Constantinople are demanding that Mr. Shertok go there at once.
Mr. Gruenbaum:
We have to keep this game going as long as possible, although there is no doubt that nothing can possibly come of it. I consider it a satanic provocation meant to give them an opportunity to slaughter the Jews of Hungary. For this reason, we have to pretend that we are doing everything in this direction.
I believe Mr. Shertok should leave for Turkey at once and spend several days there; we should also state that one of our people is going to the United States. However, we must present one condition: the deportations have to stop immediately. And another: the first thousand Jews should be from Poland and not from Hungary.
They should also be allowed to negotiate for money and not for goods. I am sure the United States will not agree to this “trade,” but we must send someone to Turkey immediately, because that way we buy time.
Mr. Shertok:
The matter should be treated with the greatest urgency and boldness. The goal is not to buy time but to rescue Jews from Europe. We must also buy time, but that should not be the goal. Even though the scheme seems chimerical, there is no doubt that many Jews may be saved if we respond in the affirmative. Say hundreds of thousands of Jews reach Portugal—what will they do with them? With what will they feed them? But we have no choice; we are duty-bound to do everything to rescue the surviving remnant in Europe. We have nothing more to lose. If the last million is not saved, it will be annihilated.
None of us should go to Turkey at once; neither should our man meet in Constantinople directly with the Germans but rather through the mediation of the Red Cross. We should immediately report the matter to our comrades in London and Washington. Maybe somebody should go to London right now.
Mr. Ben-Gurion:
I accept Mr. Pomerantzs characterization of the whole matter as fantastic, but we should not belittle its seriousness. Nor should anyone speak now about satanic plots. The Nazis have one plot—to destroy Jews. If there is a hope of one in a million, we should cling to it.
I regret that action was not taken immediately and that they did not cable that a member of the Executive would set out for Turkey then and there, because it is essential to talk with the British and American envoys.
[Ben-Gurion favors sending Mr. Shertok to Turkey.]
We should also inform our friends in London and report the matter to the High Commissioner, because without assistance from the government we cannot move. We should ask the Commissioner to bring the matter to the knowledge of the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office immediately.
Mr. Dobkin:
First of all, we should announce that the negotiations are continuing. [I] Second Ben-Gurions view on a mission by Mr. Shertok to Turkey. We should try to turn the negotiations into a matter of money, not of goods. We should also strive to send our envoy to Budapest at once. [I] doubt that we should turn the matter over to the British. For the time being, we should negotiate with the Americans, and afterwards with the British.
Dr. Shmurak:
I concur with Mr. Ben-Gurion and Mr. Shertok. The comrades in Constantinople should be instructed to insist on a halt to the deportations. There is no point in dealing with the matter behind the authorities backs.
Mr. Gruenbaum:
I consider this a plot and nothing more. I fear that if we hand the matter to the British and the Americans, we shall fail altogether. I support Mr. Dobkins proposal—not to send a cable and not to tell anyone about this matter until Mr. Shertok returns from Turkey. I agree, for lack of choice, that it should be reported to the High Commissioner in total confidentiality.
Mr. Kaplan:
The whole thing is puzzling, but we should debate the action we are about to take, because it is our duty to spare no effort to rescue the Jews of Hungary. In the meantime, we should bring the matter to the knowledge of the comrades in England and the government. If there is even one straw to grasp, we must not let it slip away. There is no hope of buying time by concealing the matter.
I suggest that the government be advised at once and that our comrades be informed by cable that Mr. Shertok is setting out for Turkey.
Mr. Ben-Gurion:
I object to Mr. Dobkins proposal—to report first to the Americans and then to the British. We have to report this to the authorities at once. Of course, we will have to ask them to report it to the central government and to treat it confidentially.
All of us favor sending Mr. Shertok to Turkey.
The motion passes.
It is proposed to report these affairs to the High Commissioner, to ask him to forward the information to the central government and to Dr. Weizmann, and to add that Mr. Shertok is about to leave for Turkey.
The vote:
three in favor (Messrs. Kaplan, Shertok, and Shmurak);
One opposed (Mr. Gruenbaum).
The motion passes.
Mr. Ben-Gurion:
We ask the comrades, especially Mr. Pomerantz, to keep these matters in total confidence and reveal them to no one. Meeting adjourned.


Anonymous said...

Ridiculous that you have to resort to unclean language instead of writing the word shitah properly.

Aren't there kids who read this website? What kind of example is that?

Dusiznies said...

The kids that you are referring to, don't read this blog, they read porn, or Der Yid!

Anonymous said...

To first commenter. Grow up.

Selective amnesia said...

Tell us the whole story including re Nazi collaborating Kapo Rudolf Kasztner, a secular Zionist.

Anonymous said...

Are you alleging / insinuating that Rav Weissmandl likely lied?

Anonymous said...

The individual that was alleged to have made that comment was probably Shwalbe, a rather low ranking Zionist in Switzerland who wasn't even an official Yishuv politician. R' Weissmandel, who kept records of documents, has none on this alleged statement.
Whether the Rav THOUGHT he heard it, or whether he ACTUALLY heard it, or whether he lied is not the issue. The issue is EVIDENCE, and none exists . Whether the Rav did the right thing by abandoning his family in the boxcar, cutting a plank, then jumping out to freedom while they perished, is not for us to judge.
Selective Amnesia above, isn't interesting in facts but in lies and omissions of facts...That's why he has selective amnesis...

In general, the point made by article linked by DIN is an excellent one. EVEN if SOME allegations about SOME individuals are true, it doesn't impugn the entire Zionist movement. Much the same as, as the link points out, as when SOME Americans engaged in bad behavior, it doesn't made our country evil.
The anti-Zionists have distorted facts, have lied and revised to continue their delusional hate. Were there bad Zionists? Of course, are there bad people in every group or CULT?.. Of course... The anti-Zionists focus on some bad happenings and talk about them as if ALL Zionists were awful and are still awful...
Yaldei Teiman, etc.... blah, blah blah...Just like the Arabs still blabb about Dir Yassin and the King David Hotel explosion... blah blah..
Fair-minded people will read a number of books by eminent historians, and not believe the garbage put out by the fanatics, Moses Shonfeld et al..

It's not worth arguing with the stale, regurgitated,half-thruths and whole slanders.
Most of us are comfortable with that part of Jewish history, and those that aren't, can wallow in their hate, delusions and make-believe world that doesn't support the evidence... After reading articles, pamphlets, books,speeches,newspapers, more articles, websites by the anti-Zionist crowd years ago.. and almost believing some of it... I happily threw all this junk in the sewer and wouldn't look or listen to this cheap 3rd rate pulp fiction again.. The frum Anti-Zionists do themselves no favor by sneaking little & bigger lies into their "literature".

Derby.... Than G-D for the State of Israel...
Too bad so many Holocaust victims couldn't say it...

Anonymous said...

Yaldei Teiman, etc.... blah, blah blah

How "humane" of you to so easily dismiss the Zionist coercion against frumkeit to the point of severe beatings & kidnappings of the Yaldei Teiman & the orphaned Yaldei Teheran.

Anonymous said...

It should be pointed out , that the Munkatcher Rav was a rabid anti-Zionist not just Satmar. The Munkatcher Rebbe was abnormally obsessed with Zionism , had extreme differences of opinion even with religious groups who even so much as smelled as having some Zionist cologne on them, and was reported to have said about the Belzer Rebbe ( also an anti-Zionist) , when the latter came to Munkatch, that there isn't enough room for the both of them... Belzer Rebbe left town ... Nice.

Before you throw garbage at others, look at yourselves.

With "experts" like these, who needs idiots? said...

"Whether the Rav did the right thing by ABANDONING his family in the boxcar"

How do you know what happened? Maybe they agreed to jump after him but chickened out?

peasant said...

There are more ganuvim & molesters in Munkatch today than there are in Satmar.

What a sad lot.

Dusiznies said...

I will soon post about the "yaldei Teiman"

Meanwhile Satmar themselves did what the accused the Zionists of doing...
kidnapping Iranian Children in the late 1970's and then smuggling them to Willy and later to Kiryas Yoel...
Later when the parents arrived the Roumanian hooligans called Satmar refused the parents any visitation...
They later took some of those Iranian girls and married them off to Satmar bums...
Soon .... I will have an expose on them...
so, yes, Yaldei Teiman?
blah blah blah blah meow!

Anonymous said...

Yaltei Teiman,, balh, balh blah blah is right.... Won't debate this... read R' Lau's book and he explains what happened, even mentions a Gerrer Chosid who was from Yaldei Teiman...It's not what we've been made to believe.... Orthodox anti-Zionists are the worst liars and loshan hora, rechilas' niks. Not a word of what you Chareidim, or whatever the heck you are do I believe... You lied to us when we were younger Cheider boys,,, Shame on you, filthy liars... Lying to us and cursing with your filthy swine mouths and cursing other Jews..

Lemmm repeat.... Yaldei Teiman, Moroccon Jews, kibbutzim...... Yes, something happened, some kids were taken away from religion. How Many? NOBODY knows... NOBODY... but to you guys, the exaggerators, I repeat... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...... Stink in your vile hate and revisionism. Then use Baby Wipes..

Derby... ... Have a great night and a great tomorrow.... Frummies are only good to teitch chumash... Any thing you hear from about history & world events from them , put in the chezkas of sheker shkurrim dept.

Dusiznies said...

To my readers...
Notice that when we catch the Satmar supporters in a lie... like this post, they then switch to something else.... for example .. Yaldei Taiman"
but I will answer them point by point... to educate my readers...
meanwhile, Satmar to my blog is a gift that keeps on giving...
Thanks Satmar!

Brisker said...

There is no steera to be against both Zionist AND Satmar mistreatment of Teimonim.

Fort, whatever Satmar did paled in comparison to the Zionists but Rav Nosson Wachtfogel ztl was still against Teimonim going to KJ so poor Lakewood kollel mishpochos opened up their wallets to fund their resettlement there.

Anonymous said...

"...Maybe they agreed to jump after him but chickened out?..."

I see.

Come, curl up with the blankkee... let me tuck you in nicely.... Drink botteeee..... Now let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time...........
The End


Anonymous said...

" How Many? NOBODY knows..."

Thanks to Zionist cover up commissions who made sure we don't.

I get it, disagree with Derby's Zionist propaganda and you are worse than Satan according to him

Anonymous said...

Derby was the one who dragged Yaldei Taiman into it at 7:34 pm.

Wow, so even Derby is not sufficiently pro-Zionist that you are calling him a Satmar supporter who lies???!!!


Anonymous said...

Stink in it, frummie hater....

And you know what???????

At this point, I don't give a damn about what happened ... I know our State is here.... thriving.... successful.... biggest Torah community on the planet... boruch Hashem... Hodu LaShem Ki Tov...
Now go throw up in the gutter... Who cares??? It's over shtunkaatch.... Get your tongue outta the sand....
Not that it'll matter,,,,

Zemer, Zemer Lach...

Yaffa Yarkoni... Yaoram Gaon, Shoshana Damari, Givatron....

.........LET'R RIP !!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

"....Derby was the one who dragged Yaldei Taiman into it at 7:34 pm.....
Yes true authentic preacher, I did.. Not that by the slimmest chance you'd EVER, EVER,EVER bring it up soon, right??
I say, throw the stink bomb first before the trapped-in-a-time-zone Malaga slurping shuckling robots throw one..

Hey... you forgot... I defended you yesterday for 4 hours, remember??? When your friend said you aren't good for sh(y)t... and I argued for 4 hours that you most certainly are... Forgot already???
Derby... Rad Halaila.... Hey Simonah m'Dimonah.... memories, memories....,

Anonymous said...

Fact is that Ben Gurion & co would not publicly mention let alone scream that Jews were being exterminated.

Meeting minutes can be doctored like the Bnei Haman were infamous for.

Anonymous said...

My last word here for fair minded.. Please, do your mind a favor and read books other than these liars who fabricate... Like 8:26, who opens up with "Fact is......." Like it's fact. It isn't, it's a lie he DID talk about it... But don't have to take it from me, folks. Read other books, not the frum mezeiffers and guilt-ridden frummies whose leaders had a nasty indirect hand .....'nuf said...

NOW.... I'm debating what R' Weissmandel was alleged to have said about R' Kotler's insistence of publishing his Talmud in '45-'47..... Asking for money for its publication .... I'll keep my mouth shut... For Now...


Dusiznies said...

You wrote:
"Meeting minutes can be doctored like the Bnei Haman were infamous for."

So are you suggesting that Rav Weissmandle "doctored" the facts so that it fits his agenda?"
You Koifer!
Meow ..

chusid101 said...

You got it wrong, it's Poiker!

Anonymous said...

You will read about how a powerless small yishuv, battling Arab marauders and under British Empire ant-Semitic rule, struggling to survive, who nevertheless sent emissaries with $$$$$, risking their lives entering Nazi occupied Europe ( some were caught & killed)to help their brethren. You'll NEVER EVER read it in the fanatical anti-Zionist ramblings. Because they, like the anti-Semites, believe in an all powerful World Jewry that can do anything. Like Ben Gurion & company had loads of $$$$ to launder through banks who were under American & Allied curbs and limitations, how BG & co. had an all powerful army and kingdom. I'm not particularly a great BG lover, but I'm interested in facts, not paranoia.
Like Nazis overran Poland, Belgium, Holland in days... respectively, but a small farkaakte yishuv, not an official country, but a yishuv with a motley of rifles, hot air balloons, 20 machine guns noisemakers, bubble gum, and rusty grenades was supposed to rescue who knows how many Jews... With what..????? How...?????
Every country shut the Jews out... England issued the White Paper cutting Jews' immigration to a ridiculous low number... Folks, read other sources, not frummie blathering blithering crap..!!

Derby.... Oranin Zabar... Ron & Nama.... Let'R RIP...!!

Anonymous said...

...And have you heard about Aliyah Bet ?? Nooooooo... Of course not...
How Zionists sneaked shiploads of refugees into Palestine , often battling with British boats and soldiers, risking their lives. Aliya Bet, w the underreported fantastic saga with so many Jewish & Non-Jewish Zionists helping with $$$$$ , bodies, illegal under-the-nose of governments shtik & ingenuity to outsmart the Germans, Arabs and British and bring Jews , many of them concentration camp survivors unto leaky boats and ships , some who sank, risking life & limb to save fellow Jews... Ever heard of it? Noooo... Give credit to Jabotinky's people who began it all.. Zionists all, ... You'll never read it in Der Goy,Der blood-Blatt, Hamodia or the other rag...

Classic anti-Semitic garbage... World Jewry Power 7 Influence..... Like Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill gave a rat's ass about a farkaakte, rag-tag yishuv of yiddlech under British control..

Emes said...

Der rebe un der soṭn : : Lieberman, Ḥayim


Anonymous said...

Oh my, you're here blogging so to be an educator? I think the correct title for you is MEISIS UMADIACH, CHOITA UMACHTI
And since the murderer Benzvi ym"s and the other Kupo shel shrotzim in the so-called Jewish agency are the trustworthy source of your knowledge, i just wonder if one of your ancestors were a close associate to the author of the "elders of zion" or maybe part of the Nazi propaganda machine
Shame on the parents who brought such disgusting creature to this world

Anonymous said...

Ben Hecht was fort a Zionist but because he speaks uncomfortable truths that shatter the myth surrounding Derby's other Zionist "heroes", Derby writes off Hecht as an irrelevant, imaginative playwright.

Author Sanford Sternlicht writes, "Ben Hecht did more to help Jewish refugees from the Holocaust and to ensure the survival of the nascent state of Israel than any other American Jew in the twentieth century". Hecht became arguably "the most effective propagandist the Jewish state ever had." In 1964, at Hecht’s funeral service at Temple Rodeph Shalom in New York City, among the eulogists was Menachem Begin, the future Prime Minister of Israel.

Anonymous said...

Derby is the one guilty of revisionist history. He wrote on another thread that there was an Irgun conspiracy between Ben Hecht's lawyer & the judge to convict Kasztner.

What Derby conveniently omits is that all 5 Israel Supreme Court justices on appeal agreed with the lower court judge that Kasztner was guilty of indirect genocide and 4 of 5 justices agreed Kasztner was an actual Nazi collaborator.

And how come all of a sudden Derby's hero Meir Kahane is chopped liver when he held Perfidy is a must read?

Anonymous said...

PERFIDY IS a devastating account of how, toward the end of the Shoah, the Jews of Hungary were betrayed by Rudolf Kastner, deputy head of the Relief and Rescue Committee, an ideological affiliate of Mapai (precursor of today's Labor Party). Hecht tells how after the Nazi invasion of Hungary in March 1944, Kastner brazenly collaborated with Dieter Wisliceny, a top aide to Gestapo Jewish Section chief Adolf Eichmann, to save the lives of cronies and family.

Instead of raising the alarm, the Mapai leaders, who dominated the quasi-governmental Jewish Agency, pursued an accommodationist policy toward the British Mandate authorities. That wasn't all. In the Joel Brand Affair, Mapai chieftains collaborated with the British in torpedoing the Hungarian Jews' very last chance of avoiding the gas chambers. For in April 1944, Eichmann allowed Relief and Rescue Committee member Joel Brand to leave Occupied Europe with a stunning proposal: The Nazis would trade a million Jews for 10,000 trucks to be used only against the Soviets on the eastern front. Rather than facilitate the mission, Hecht wrote, Mapai leaders conspired with the British to have Brand detained. As if all this weren't enough, the Mapainiks betrayed Irgun and Lehi fighters to the British both during and after the war, culminating, in their relentless duplicity, in the sinking of the Altalena and the attempted murder of Menachem Begin.


Until recently, this book was banned in Israel, for obvious reasons...

Anonymous said...

Do you really believe this propaganda you put forth to besmirch Rav Weissmandel ztl just because Satmar holds of him?

The Jewish Agency was being cleverly misled by the lying traitor Andor "Bandi" Grosz, so none of this transcript means anything. Not that the secular Zionists were very honest either. Joel Brand fell into the trap the Zionists set for him where the British arrested him in Syria. Brand had ignored the warnings from Jabotinsky & the Agudah who even sent messengers to warn him in Turkey he was being led into a trap & would be arrested.

These secular Zionists are something else. According to the historians Bauer & Lob, Kasztner was hitting on Brand's wife when her husband was away & had an adulterous affair with her.

Anonymous said...

Unlike so many of you,I don't drink anybody's Kool-Aid, so though I admired Kahane, I don't agree with everything he said. Begin was also an Irgunist and implacable foe of BG and Labor. Liked him too, but don't lap dog to him either. Don't drink anyone's malaga like you and don't robot- shuckel like you either.
Not an IOTA of evidence that Mapai leaders collaborated with British or anybody to detain Brand. All hocus-pocus. Not a scintilla of evidence, just accusation after accusation.
Not I, but all major historians , including Lucy Dawidowitz , and even the Yiddish, orthodox writer for the Forvaertz, Lieberman destroyed Hecht. Altalena affair was not pretty, but Begin & co. wanted to keep the ammo to themselves and not share it with the nascent state. It's not as B&W as you guys want us to believe....Begin himself , years later, wanted BG in his gov't and was ready to forgive and forget.. All these are side red-herring issues to throw crap on Zionists just because you don't like them..
So you pick the Zionists you want to use vs. those you don't like..... eating salami with pot cheese...

Derby... Oh... Did I mention that no evidence EVER surfaced to link Mapai to collaboration...?
End of story.... Have a great day...

Anonymous said...

"....What Derby conveniently omits is that all 5 Israel Supreme Court justices on appeal agreed with the lower court judge that Kasztner was guilty of indirect genocide and 4 of 5 justices agreed Kasztner was an actual Nazi collaborator....."

Not True, Doctor... Why you be a DR.? Read on for answer, please.

----The Supreme Court of Israel overturned most of the judgment against Kastner in 1958. The judges overturned the first count by 3–2 and the second count by 5–0. The longest majority decision was written by Judge Shimon Agranat, who said:

1.During that period Kastner was motivated by the sole motive of saving Hungary's Jews as a whole, that is, the largest possible number under the circumstances of time and place as he estimated could be saved.
2.This motive fitted the moral duty of rescue to which he was subordinated as a leader of the Relief and Rescue Committee in Budapest.
3.Influenced by this motive he adopted the method of financial or economic negotiation with the Nazis.
4.Kastner's behavior stands the test of plausibility and reasonableness.
5.His behavior during his visit to Cluj (on May 3) and afterwards, both its active aspect (the plan of the "prominents") and its passive aspect (withholding the "Auschwitz news" and lack of encouragement for acts of resistance and escape on a large scale) – is in line with his loyalty to the method which he considered, at all important times, to be the only chance of rescue.
6.Therefore one cannot find a moral fault in his behavior, one cannot discover a causal connection between it and the easing of the concentration and deportation, one cannot see it as becoming a collaboration with the Nazis.[40]-------

Derby .... Don't make up stuff, don't pull out of context. Don't revise .
I'm not gonna respond to BS anymore, so don't read my lack of comments as admission or agreement with said BS...
You have an advanced degree... As my prof once said:
BS= Bull shit
MS= More of the same
PHD= Piled higher and deeper..
Do you hear , Herr Dukktor ??

Anonymous said...

Commentary magazine, by Lucy Davidowicz

.....Hecht is just as partisanly political as the people he accuses of partisan politics. The Kastner case was conducted in this spirit, and even Joel Brand finally realized it. Withdrawing earlier accusations of treachery against Sharett and Weizmann which Tamir had wrung from him, Brand cried out that Tamir wanted “to help one party by exploiting the spilt blood of the Jews.”

This is precisely what Ben Hecht has done. Underplaying the German murder of six million Jews, with the active collaboration of Poles, Ukrainians, Baits, Hungarians, and Rumanians, he overplays the British and American failure to provide haven for the Jews or to undertake some effective military action to stop the operations of the gas chambers. Finally, he ascribes to the Jewish Agency the greatest crime of all—of having acquiesced in the partition of Palestine on British terms, and betrayed the Irgun’s dream of a Greater Palestine.

Hecht exploits the mistakes, the fears, the timidities and stupidities, the political bickerings among the Zionists, and indeed among all the Jewish organizations during the holocaust, in order to disgrace Mapai and the Jewish Agency and to glorify the Revisionist movement. He has converted ideological differences into savage personal defamation, and equated Zionist mistakes and expediency with German murder.....

Just a sample of many, many critiques of the suddenly newly born "Jewish" fiction Hollywood playwright writer Ben ( I'm not an historian" Hecht..

But as I said, I'm done fighting BS..


Anonymous said...

Due to awkward language in a historical source, I mistakenly mixed up which parts of Kasztner's sentence were upheld.

It was upheld 5-0 that Kasztner covered up for Nazi war criminal Kurt Becher.

Notice how when Derby cuts & pastes from Wiki, he leaves out this damning statement on Kasztner from Supreme Court Justice Moshe Silberg who disagreed with acquittal on historical and moral grounds:

"We can sum up with these three facts: That the Nazis didn't want to have a great revolt — "Second Warsaw" — nor small revolts, and their passion was to have the extermination machine working smoothly without resistance. This fact was known to Kastner from the very best source — Eichmann himself ... That the most efficient means to paralyze the resistance wheel or the escape of a victim is to conceal from him the plot of the coming murder ... That he, Kastner, in order to carry out the rescue plan for the few prominents, fulfilled knowingly and without good faith the said desire of the Nazis, thus expediting the work of exterminating the masses."

This is Derby in a nutshell: Satmar and any of their supposed malaga slogging yeshivish associates are guilty as sin but Zionist Nazi collaborator Kasztner gets a free pass.

Anonymous said...

Commentary is the rag of the Conservative movement but even if they are trying to be honest, maybe Brand was trying to cover up that he was cuckolded by Kasztner.

Dusiznies said...

It's interesting how the anti-Jewish Satmars change with the wind...
They scream that Herzl was an assimilated Jew so we can't trust him...
But Ben Hecht was married twice, each time to a Shiksa! And they trust him!

Anonymous said...

JTA---- 1958

The Israel Supreme Court posthumously cleared Dr. Israel Kastner today of collaboration with the Nazis in his negotiations to save Jews in German-occupied Hungary during the late World War. The majority opinion, which was read out in court all day today, is expected to take three days to read to completion, after which the minority report will be heard.
Granting that Dr. Kastner’s negotiations with Eichmann for the release of 100,000 Hungarian Jews against the payment of $2,000,000 was "patently immoral," Justice Agranat held that it was "unreasonable to adopt a technical attitude toward such an act when so much was at stake. " He said the lower court had the advantage of hindsight information which Dr. Kastner, under the existing circumstances and in the atmosphere of hopelessness of Hungarian Jewry, could not have known.

The Supreme Court held that collaboration required intent and than an analysis of the Gruenwald trial record did not support the contention that Dr. Kastner’s acts were part of a deliberate plot. It called Judge Halevy’s reasoning and conclusions "unfounded."

Center for Israel Education, 1958 ;

The 1955 judgement was overturned by a majority of 3 to 2. Chief Justice Shimon Agranat declared that, “Dr. Kastner never wanted to annihilate the Jews, the opposite is true.”

Back and forth??

Stick to what you know:
TRAINS....especially from Budapest to Switzerland ...Then to Marcy Ave. Williamsburgh.


Anonymous said...

R' Joel Teitelbaum, rescued by Kastner and his Vaada Committee
refused to testify at his trial , not even to send a letter of support when beseeched , claiming that it was G-D who saved him.
Kasztner's Train, Anna Porter's book.

Derby.... So it's the K train over there in Willy, Marcy Ave... Thought it was the F train....

Dusiznies said...

Those Anti-Zionist comments are bizarre and crazy!
They write that the documents of the Jewish Agency are doctored etc etc
so we cant trust them
and then they take a sworn Zionist Ben Hecht, whose children are goyim and swear by him...
So which is it?
But some documents were not doctored for example...
The Belzer Rebbe's Sefer, that he wrote before escaping to Palestine ,that says that Hitler YM"S will never reach Hungary, and the documents from the Kastner Train that show that The Satmar Rebbe escaped to Switzerland..while telling his flock to stay put, and putting in Cherim a Rav that was warning Jews to leave..
Those documents are all here for everyone to read, and all will admit that those documents weren't doctored!
Those documents are alive and breathing!

Paysach Krohn said...

Well, they say Hecht had bris mila but Herzl didn't.

Anonymous said...

בען העכט : דער מענש און זיין ״פארראט״ : אן ענטפער אויף זיין ביטערער אטאקע אויף די גרינדער און פירער פון מדינת ישראל

ליבערמאן, חיים. פון חיים ליבערמאן devastating attack on Hecht.. Chaim Lieberman, a member of the editorial staff of the Jewish Daily Forward, went so far as to write a 103 page booklet, commenting on the distortions of history that Hecht published in Perfidy. Lieberman states that Perfidy was “Written with spittle and venom, it is a book in which the great Jewish tragedy is turned into a cheap shocker.” Lieberman goes on to say that “Hecht really has no conception of the true significance either of Zionism of the holocaust [sic]. He is woefully unqualified, morally and spiritually, to penetrate their meaning and mystery.” [4]

From Ben ( I'm not a historian) Hecht's book A Jew in Love:

“.....The Jews now and then hatch a face which for Jewishness surpasses the caricatures of the entire anti-Semitic press. These Jew faces in which race leers and burns like some biologic disease are rather shocking to a mongrelized world." Hecht continues on his first page “People dislike being reminded of their origins. They shudder a bit mystically at the sight of anyone who looks too much like a fish, a lizard, a chimpanzee or a Jew.” .....

Shlomo Katz, in MIDSTREAM : wrote a review, said “It is an evil book in every sense of the word …. The first reaction to reading Perfidy is one of loathing. ‘Trash!’ one is inclined to exclaim and to fling Ben Hecht’s opus into the nearest garbage can.” Katz concluded “Ben Hecht’s Perfidy … is unique – when one reads it, one feels soiled.” [8]


Dusiznies said...

I'll give you the job to exhume the bodies and check....
the ants may have gotten their first!

Anonymous said...

Maybe Herman (Chaim) Lieberman was like Derby who sees a Satmar co-conspirator under every black hat, after Lieberman was the target of a Satmar crank phone call campaign at all hours of the night in the 1950s.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, "big" score there with Shlomo Katz, a stooge of the Theodore Herzl Foundation. Herzl whose uncircumcised children became meshumodim and/or committed suicide. That's some Zionist legacy!

Emes said...

Anonymous Emes said...
Der rebe un der soṭn : : Lieberman, Ḥayim


December 1, 2014 at 11:14 PM

Dusiznies said...

You're certainly right about those "crank calls"
You can ask the late Kloizenberger Rebbe about that... he knew all about the "crank calls"
The Satmar Tzaddikim were very "nice" to the Kloizenberger, they sent him Domino Pizza on Shabbos...
All this in the lifetime of the "Tzaddik Hador"

Anonymous said...

When R' Aron Shurin, talmid of the Ponevizher Rov, criticized Satmar, they bombarded him 24 hours a day.

And those hooligans even abused R' Moishe Feinstein, but at least in that case the Ruv apologized & made sure it stopped.

Gangs of NY said...

If anyone knows the details of shvartz-Satmar thugs threatening to beat up R' Lazer Silver ztl after he criticized one of their machoyos - that would be interesting.

Anonymous said...

dusiznies- we know you left satmar so you have some kind of satmar complex but calm down. Just prepare that daf hayomi shiur you give instead of wasting your time bashing satmar.

Dusiznies said...

I don't think that I'm bashing Satmar, I'm just pointing out the massive flaws in their shitah.
Rav Henkin z"l did a far better job of bashing them, calling them "Rashoim & Roidfim."

Anonymous said...

What was the context by Rav Henkin?

(Satmar will probably farentfer that his ayneklach are today all Zionists or secular lol)

Dusiznies said...

Rav Henkin got a copy of the shita that was published in Jan 1959, that in effect said that Jews have an obligation to help the Arabs give Israel back to the UN..
It was called "Chomoseinu"
Rav Henkin wrote that he shivered reading that, and said that He himself was against the State, but once it was established every Jew has an obligation to support the State...
those that oppose it are "Roidfim and Rashoim.."

Du shlofst? said...

You're not reporting on the big story at the chassuna that Zalmi made for his daughter?

Du shlofst? said...

I guess you don't about it.

Zalmi apparently invited disgraced menuvol Vito Gropez who helped Satmar, the Catholic Church & the Agudah block the Markey Bill in Albany that would have helped kids abused by molesters.

The problem was that all the high ranking Democrats at the chassuna like Tom DiNapoli & Eric Adams were scurrying around like scared ketzelach every time Gropez approached, terrified that someone would take a picture of them with Gropez.

So one of Zalmi's shlock shamoshim came over & told Gropez he has to leave.

Bar Kamtza said...

probably shelly silver or dinapoli who told zalmi's henchmen to send lopez home because dinapoli will have to sign off on any financial settlements with lopez's grope victims so that would be a real political powder keg to be caught on camera with him