Let's begin with the Chazon Ish!
ליקוטי החזון איש
( קי"ד..ו')או"ח מועד, הלכות עירובין, ליקוטין, סימן)
דזה פשיטא,דבשביל פיקוח נפש והצלת העם כולם חייבין. אלא אפילו בזמן שאין צורך אלא למספר מסוים, היה רשות ליקח חתן מחדרו, שאין להחוזרים שום זכות במלחמות מצוה, וכן במלחמת רשות, אינן פטורין אלא בזמן שאין נצחון ישראל תלוי בהם שמספר הצבא שצורך בהן יש בלעדן, אבל אם יש צורך בהן חייבין לבוא לעזרת אחיהם
Loose translation!
There is no question that for the sake of Pikuach Nefesh and the salvation of the people, everyone must join [the army] But even at a time when there is no need but just a certain amount of soldiers, one can draft a groom even from his marital room, they have no exemption in wars of mitzvah ,but even in wars that not for a mitzva, they are not exempt except when there is sufficient people in the army and they are not needed, but if it is necessary, they must come to the aid of their brethren
הגרי"ש אלישיב
(חשוקי חמד, בבא מציעא, ק"ח א')
דכל מה שת"ח פטורים, היינו כשעדיין לא באה מכת הגניבות, שאז תורתם תגן שלא יפגעו, אבל כשהמכה החלה, והגנבים השתלטו על המקום ומכירים כל מבואותיו, אין סומכין על הנס וחייבים להשתתף
Loose translation!
A Talmud Chacham is only exempt from the army when the thieves (in our case, murderers) have not yet arrived, in that case, their Torah Learning will protect them that they shouldn't get hurt, but when the thieves (in our case, murderers and rapists) have already managed to dominate and all know that they are already here and for what purpose, then one can no longer rely on a miracle and one is required to join!
Last week, during the 9 days, Rav Mordechai Neugroschrel, a well-known Chareidie speaker, a clean-shaven "rabbi," addressed a well-attended gathering in Ramat Beit Shemesh and lectured the crowd on why Chareidim should NOT serve in the army!
I walked in a bit late and walking in I thought I was in the wrong place as the entire crowd burst out in laughter, mind you, this was during the 9 days! Before I had a chance to find a place and sit down, the crowd burst out laughing again and I started thinking this guy must be doing Stand-Up comedy!
The clean-shaven rabbi continued with his "jokes" in rapid-fire! I found it inappropriate, for a rabbi to joke about a serious topic while Jewish children were dying just a few miles away!
I need to point out that Beit Shemesh itself lost quite of few of our children in Gaza and in the North and in fact one Beit Shemesh family had just gotten up from Shiva.
Which genius invited this guy to speak in a city that was mourning its finest?
One guy who was army-age, and turned out to be a Hesder soldier, challenged him, and asked him how can he lecture that Charedim should not share in the burden of their neighbors? He pointed out that he loves to learn, actually learns and is a Shomer Torah Umitzvois and so are his buddies and so what is wrong of being in the army like him and learning?
He continued, asking why is it that there are practically no Chareidim at the funerals of the fallen soldiers? Why is it that you never find Chareidim visiting the wounded soldiers?
The clean-shaven rabbi started pandering to him and said that "he feels for them bla bla bla!
I keep reminding you guys that he is "Clean-Shaven" because normally someone who considers himself "Chareidie" would never take a "rabbi" like this seriously! But since he is taking up their cause, suddenly he is a celebrity and their hero!
To support his position that Chareidim even if they "batel" and don't learn should not enlist he brings a Zohar!
The Zohar is talking about a "Yissacher/Zevulin" relationship where they agree that one learns and the other one supports him! But this whole premise is totally flawed because this "Yissacher/Zevulin" relationship is an "agreement" between the parties. Note: "AN AGREEMENT" not that Yissachar imposes his will on Zevulin. Besides this has nothing to do with a war where even Yissacher, the learner, has to fight just like everyone else! Even a chassan under the chuppah is dragged to fight!
This challenge from the soldier was only at the end of the lecture that was peppered with continued jokes and hysterical laughter from the crowd! Clean-Shaven Neugroschel quoted all HIS gedoilim but conveniently left out the Chazon Ish , Rav Eliyshiv's Pask seen above, and Rav Shach's psak below!
See a letter from Harav Shach, where he writes only someone whose "Torahorah is Umnosah" should get a "patur" everyone else goes to the army! In other words only someone whose intention is make Torah, his profession gets an exemption!
23 comments:
While recognizing that there are two sides to this, I want to thank you for promoting intelligent discourse. If everyone discussed this intelligently, we would be in a much better place.
I really love how din trys to convince people that the chazon ish would tell a yeshiva bochur to fight in the idf.....really a funny joke
https://mailchi.mp/jnf/rebuilding-israel-together-15386421?e=ea67c5ae5a
This past Saturday, over Shabbat, the Jewish National Fund (JNF) Canada was blindsided when it learned via a posting in the Canada Gazette that its charitable status has been revoked despite court proceedings currently underway. This was done in a manner contrary to the CRA’s standard practice. The norm is that the CRA would hold the revocation until the legal proceedings conclude and a decision is delivered from the court.
This draconian and unjust action is consistent with the CRA’s attitude towards JNF since it informed us that it was intending to revoke our charitable status. We appealed while at the same time striving to reach an agreement with the CRA on a constructive path forward, while our overtures to have a dialogue in order to negotiate were consistently rebuffed.
In the coming days we will be advising the court of the severe damage the CRA is causing us and asking for an application for judicial review until our case is heard on its merits.
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We need your help now more than ever.
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We will not be silent in the face of this attack on us as a charity.
I think it's fair to point out that the quotes of the Chazon Ish and Rav Elyashiv were not referring specifically to joining the IDF, but to the general obligation of milchemes mitzvah.
Just because this guy look clean shaven and smart glasses. he holds the same mishigas and "get out of serving" as much as the guys with long beards R'L
I agree with comment except the first part. There are no two sides to this. Read this: https://substack.com/@natanslifkin/p-147772050
All these sources are irrelevant. They are referring to a Halachic war al pi Urim VeTumim. This is neither a milchemes mitzva nor a milchemes Reshus since it isn't led by Jewish law. It's the same as the Russian army. How is anyone allowed to put themselves in danger in a war dictated by politics?
Yosef
Ama-Ratzim should really not comment on this site! Both the Chazon Ish and Rav Eliyashiv (BTW I have many more Chareidie Poiskim) are talking about wars WITHOUT the Urim Ve'tumim. They are referring to the Here and Now! Even with the Urim Ve'tumim the Mishna states unequivocally that we shlep a Chassan out of his bedroom and draft him! There was no Urim Ve'Tumim during the Second Bais Hamikdash and they went to war every Monday and Thursday.
Sammy K
The Chazon Ish speaks for itself! His deal with Ben Gurion was with 400 Bachrim not 65,000!
Yosef
"all sources are irrelevant?" You farikter upgerisseiner naar! You are irrelevant! You keep pushing your "Hamas Ideas" on other web sites as well! Every time you write one sees that you are an unlearned fanatic parroting Hamas propaganda!
Not true. Chazon Ish says clearly that it is even a Milchemes Reshus and Reb Elyashiv was discussing bandits.
(I’m the guy who said there are two sides, but both need to be true to the sources)
Not true.
DIN
I really don't care how you put it but please don't try to say that the chazon ish or R Eliyashev or R shach would ever be pro idf...you don't believe what your saying so don't try to make others believe it
3:29
Rav Eliyashiv was indeed discussing bandits. If Rav Eliyashiv was stating that people must join the army in case of bandits, then in a case where they are coming to kill and rape your wives and daughters then of cpourse one must join the army. Your statement bolsters my point
Sammy K
I'm just posting what they wrote for the entire world to see. Are you suggesting that what the Chazon Ish and Harav Eliyashiv wrote in the above quoted,they were just joking? Then how could we take anything they wrote seriously?
Sammy K
What you are saying disrespects the Chazon Ish and Harav Eliyashiv. You are saying that they didn't really mean what they wrote! What utter arrogance!
By saying that the chazon ish is pro idf is disrespect.when people quote what he said out of context is disrespect.none of these quotes ever said anything about the idf! Anytime certain people see the word war, for some reason it always has to be talking about the idf and the medina....I don't understand....
Indeed - (3:29)
Rav Chaim Kanievsky ZTz'l served in the IDF. He way Rav Elyashiv's son in law, the Steipler's son and the Chazon Ish' nephew.
Even more important than what was written is what was done and in 1948, plenty of Chareidim, including rebbeim, picked up guns and went out to fight.
Sammy k
You are disrespecting what the Chazon Ish by saying that what he wrote (see post) is not what he meant! This isn't out of context, it is the entire teshuva! That in a time of Milchames Mitzvah even a Chassan is dragged out of his bedroom and given a rifle to fight! You by distorting what he wrote is disrespecting him making him looking like a fool, writing stuff that he really didn't mean! Shame on you!
Do u know what a milchemes mitzvah is?
????
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