*Beit Shemesh News*
Guys, you get this?
For whom did the rabbanim of Beit Shemesh issue this psak?
Think about this for a moment!
Is this psak directed at the Arabs?
The Arabs by in large do not live in Beit Shemesh and Arab workers have their own transportation. And as a rule, Arabs do not read the Kol Koras of the gedoilim.
Is this directed at the children and students that ride the buses to school?
Students taking public transportation pay "bubkis" to travel and are issued RavKavs!
The elderly that are 60 and over, pay half fare, so in Beit Shemesh a one-way trip anywhere locally would be about 4.50 shekels that on today's conversion rate, would be $1.30. Anyone over 75 pays zero!
The Dati Leumi guys have cars and those that do take transportation, hardly use the "inter-city" buses, they use the buses going out of Beit Shemesh to other cities and there the buses have inspectors all the time.
No one reading this post really thinks that a "Dati-Leumi" is riding for free, not even the gedoilim that signed the Kol Korah, and the Dati-Leumi crowd wouldn't be found dead reading these Kol Koras!
So again, to whom was this Kol Korah addressed to?
It was addressed to Shomrei Torah Umitzvois, who put on Rabbeinu Taam Tefillin and eat only from the Eida Hachreidis.... use the "mehadrin" eirav, who would not drink even a glass of water that has the Rabbanut Hashgacha, and would never eat "heter mechira" G-d forbid
..... so, there you have it!
Yup, these are the guys that are stealing money multiple times a day!
The Gedoilim of the city of Beit Shemesh wrote the following in a halachic ruling:
"Warning against Not Paying the fare on public transportation"
A special halachic ruling from the gedoilim and dayanim of Beit Shemesh warn the city's residents that not paying the fare on public transportation is theft!
'Even though they made recent changes to public transportation, the ruling remains in effect. Know that there is a prohibition against stealing while traveling without payment,'
*בית שמש חדשות*
*גדולי רבני העיר בית שמש בפסק הלכה: להזהיר מן הגזל בתחבורה הציבורית*
פסק הלכה מיוחד מבית מדרשם של גדולי רבני ופוסקי ההלכה בעיר שמש מתריע בפני תושבי העיר להיזהר מעוון גזל בנסיעה ללא תשלום בתחבורה הציבורית.
'גם לאחר כל השינויים שנעשו לאחרונה בתחבורה הציבורית לא נשתנה הדבר, שיש איסור גזל בנסיעה בלי תשלום' כותבים רבני העיר בית שמש במכתבם.
20 comments:
It’s the same Ra-Bonim who for years ruled that the Zionist regime does not have the rule of DINA DMALCHUSA DINA, because it is an illegitimate entity and does not constitute a HALACHIK government.
That is exactly why that gangster Deri has his HETER for stealing hundreds of millions of government funds.
And then they wonder how come they are hated by the CHILONIM
This article is a real kvetch from a true litvac. It reminds me of this yeshivishe kid that was busy with the sign that read: don't think of parking here. What do you mean don't think? I thought already
Israeli buses are not like American buses where you pay up front. It seems no one oversees who pays or not. Why do you think people you label as chareidim don't have a yetzer hara?
The train I believe is fully owned and operated by the government the busses are only partially owned the Charon ish passing you are allowed to take back money you had to give to the government such as taxes so going on the train would not be stealing and that is was the letter is for it’s a reminder that the busses are not fully government I know chosuva people that use a government owed mikva without pay
8:36
Please give us the source where the Chazon Ish wrote that it is permitted to steal from the government.
Yes there’s a Sefer called סלע מדינה that brings all the שיטות
Also look אורחות רבינו" ח"ד עמ' ר"כ,
ספר "פאר הדור" ח"ג עמ' רצ"ו
במנחת יצחק ח"ט סו"ס ק"י
בשו"ת פאת שדך סי' צ"א.
All bring the Chazon ish
9:32
I am not going to look at all the sources, but I do have a מנחת יצחק and he is talking about separating תרו"מ from יד השלטון .. The Chazon Ish that he quotes is actually talking about someone who has fruit from a "goy" or הפקר and is not talking about "allowing someone stealing from the government."
Please quote a source where the Chazon Ish said explicitly without needing any complicated scenarios that one is allowed to steal from the government. Because the Chazon Ish once tore up a stamp that the post office forgot to cancel, because he didn't want to be over on לא תגזול
I remember the first time I encountered this. I was riding the bus on a rainy day, a black hat kid got on, pretended to check his pockets and then told the driver, after the bus was moving, that he didn't have a ticket. So, naive idiot that I was, I moved forward and put an extra ticket of mine in the box to help him out. And he ran after me to explain that I didn't need to do that because he only intended to take the bus for one stop and figured the bus wouldn't stop because he didn't pay the ticket!
As I used to say, any intelligent person knows to use cutlery at a meal. A "tzadik" needs to ask a shailoh to know if it's permitted.
> the Dati-Leumi crowd wouldn't be found dead reading these Kol Koras!
Oh we read them. It's a good reminder of why we're not Chareidim.
So I had the opportunity to get hold of the אורחות רבינו" ח"ד עמ' ר"כ, and to my surprise there is absolutely nothing mentioned about “allowing the stealing from the government “ in fact on that page is a facsimile of a Sefer Torah so you are a fake fraud and a phony
That's a Bob Grant line
The dati rabbis are busy with intermarriage
Ok possible I may have quoted the wrong page please don’t call me a phony here’s a link to the Sefer that goes through this sugya you will learn something you don’t know
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=54108&st=%d7%90%d7%95%d7%a8%d7%97%d7%95%d7%aa+%d7%a8%d7%91%d7%99%d7%a0%d7%95&pgnum=1&hilite=
9:26
My nephew learns in Kollel in Yerushalayim in Ramot Eshkol and we printed out the PDF and distributed to all our 38 members and asked them to highlight if the Chazon Ish or any poisek would allow anyone to steal from the government either on taxes or public transportation. They all, I repeat all, said that there is absolutely no heter not to pay taxes in the State of Israel. Not paying taxes in the State, is not only stealing from the government but stealing from every Jewish citizen living in Israel.
As far as not paying for a fare on public transportation, all held unanimously that not paying the fare is a chillul Hashem and במקום חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב
Even if a Rav such as the Chazon Ish would pasken (not likely) that one is allowed to steal the fare that would be a חילול השם and one would have to override the faulty psak
9:26
Iam not a learned man, but I try to keep all mitzvois as much as I can, but if it is indeed true that the Chazon Ish allowed anyone to steal from the government, I will stop putting on tefillin tomorrow morning. I don't really care about the polemic, if the Chazon Ish was serious about this halacha, then the entire Torah world is fraudulent.
Tell your talmidai chachomim in kollel not to passenger themselves see attached link with video from a talmid muvhak of the Chazon ish….if there’s no dina dmalchusa in eretz yisroel then why are you so shocked by such a psak that you can take you tax money back
https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1340036
1:06
My "talmidai chachomim" from kollel, laughed their collective heads off when I showed them your answer. They all said that there isn't a poisek in the entire world that "soif soif" paskens like the Chazon Ish, the CI was a yachid not only on the ridiculous enormous shiurim which he himself never used (as we know what his kiddush cup looked like) but in practically all his psaks. The CI is learned for his brilliant analytical polemics, but in practice, no rav will pasken like him as 99% of his psaks are not practical.
To say that the State of Israel has no din of "Dina Demalchusa" is false on many levels! The CI himself paid his taxes and wouldn't even re-use an un-canceled stamp!
Ok enough Arguing but you at least agree that there is a psak from the chazon ish (which Reb nissom koreliz held of he just said that you should stay away cause you may get used to stealing other stuff)so next time you see someone going onto the train and not paying be Dan lechaf zchus he has what to be somech on
8:34
I'm not here to argue, I personally never learned in yeshiva. I am, though in total shock! What I am seeing here, is that there are rabbis, not just rabbis, but "gedolim" that have written responsa in support of stealing from a Jewish government and I noticed that you have doubled down on that and that you who seems to be a learned man, is mocking those in Kollel, who do not agree with your take.
I cannot even if I wished, be able to learn those responsa, but what I can say is this.
If according to these rabbis, the Torah allows grown people with beards and peyes to go onto a bus and not pay, then I am out of this orthodoxy.
If you are in fact correct that these rabbis wrote hundreds of pages justifying theft, then there is something very wrong with our religion. I learned that Hashem brought the "great flood" because people stole less than a penny's worth, but these rabbis are stating that it is ok to steal far more than that, then the "frum" religious world as we see it, is doomed.
There are monks, Christians, and Moslems that wouldn't dream of taking and justifying theft!
Again, just to be clear, you are stating empathically, that gedolim took hours of their busy schedules, and wrote page after page, and brought, I assume, proof from the Talmud and the Torah itself that it is ok to steal from this Jewish government that supports Torah Institutions to the tune over $300 million?
I am out, since I cannot see Hashem punishing a Jew with death for carrying a handkerchief in a public domain on the Sabbath and yet allow and sanction with rabbinic responsa, brazen theft of services from fellow Jews. There is something very sick in this logic.
Hey I am chas vashalom not mocking any of theses guys in kollel and I never said I go with this opinion as I lived in eretz yisroel for 3yrs and I don’t believe I took anything for the government I am just bringing out another opinion ….and it’s not that these gedolim said you can steal so stop bringing the “great flood” into this it’s that they hold that it’s not stealing cause there’s no dina dmalchusa . chas vashalom it’s 100 percent assur to steal even from a goy
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