Powered By Blogger

Sunday, October 22, 2023

What Charedim Need To Understand About Religious Zionists

 



DIN: I copied and pasted without permission an article from Rationalist Judaism  by NATAN SLIFKIN.
I think that all Chareidim better read this. Everything in Israel has changed. I don't think that the non-chareidim are going to allow Chareidim to dodge the draft any longer. As bugs bunny said "It's all over folks" 
There is tremendous resentment even amongst the frummies, that able healthy guys are getting away with murder, literally. All this "Chazon Ish business" is going out the window quicker than a snowball in hell. Chareidim are no longer going to enjoy the same benefits as those putting their lives on the line, some are realizing this and there is a feeling of change in the air. I don't think that Chareidie parties will be able to demand anything in the near future. Torah learning which I agree is "mesiras nefesh" is not like putting a uniform going to front knowing they might never see their wives, children and parents ever again. When an Avreich learns, he knows that he will come home at night with a hot meal waiting for him. "mesiras nefesh" is not like being "moiser nefesh". Torah will still being learned as Slifkin points out, as never before. 
You may not agree with Slifkin, but you had better read it to finally see what the Israeli citizens will require, after this war. 

Since the Hamas war started, I’ve become aware of several families which have developed rifts between charedi and non-charedi relatives. And when this war is over, there is going to be a rift between charedi and Zionist society which will be greater than ever seen before. While some will say that “now is not the time to talk about this,” I think that now is davka the time. It is important and I hope that my comments will be helpful. My goal in this post is not to argue against the charedi perspective; it is to explain what the religious Zionist perspective is, and how to avoid family - and national - rifts.

The charedi world is very far from monolithic. There are some sectors in which they are continuing life as normal and talking about how secular Israel is getting a Divine message about the arrogance of the IDF. There are other sectors of charedi society in which many people (I’m not sure what percentage of the community) are making various helpful efforts to assist with the war, such as by providing supplies. 

There are a small proportion who do incredible work with Zaka and Hatzolah. There are even a (very) small number who, amazingly, are trying to join the IDF in various capacities; the publisher of the Israeli Mishpacha magazine announced that he was trying to help with such efforts. And there seems to be a widespread increased consciousness and identification with the nation in general and the IDF in particular.

The problem is that some charedim (especially Anglo-yeshivish types) make statements to their non-charedi relatives which, to their minds, sound to be very gracious and representing a spirit of achdus, as well as reflecting the unequivocal Torah perspective. They do not realize that from a religious but non-charedi perspective, these statements are (A) theologically invalid, and (B) offensive.

I’m referring to the various campaigns and statements like, “the yeshivah students are the soldiers in Hashem’s army, they are providing the merit by which the soldiers survive and triumph, they are fulfilling a role of equal (or greater) importance, look at our amazing achdus!”

This makes perfect sense from a charedi perspective, in which the starting point is that learning Torah automatically creates an unimaginably great merit. Therefore young men who are learning Torah are providing an invaluable service for the Jewish People. Accordingly, Israel is benefiting tremendously from all those many tens of thousands of young men who are learning in yeshiva rather than serving in the IDF. (I am not sure whether charedim believe that Religious Zionist young men should also exempt themselves from army service and stay in yeshivah; I’d appreciate hearing charedi perspectives on this.)


But from a religious Zionist perspective (see Rav Eliezer Melamed’s discussion herehere and here), the starting point is that every able-bodied Jew has an obligation to serve in the army and try to protect the Jewish People. This is a mitzvah, a chiyuv, on all Jews, which takes precedence over everything. (There may be an exception for a very small number of elite scholars whose mission is to be teachers of the nationif they are not needed for the war effort, but there is certainly no exemption for standard yeshivah students.) 

It is like tefillah and every other obligatory mitzva and obligation. You can’t say “I’m not going to davven because I’m learning Torah,” or “I’m not going to say Kinnos on Tisha B’Av because I’m learning Torah,” or “I’m not going to help my wife because I’m learning Torah.” And if you do, your Torah has no merit.

It’s not that the spiritual merits are unimportant to religious Zionists; it’s that they are obtained elsewhere. There are many people who are unable to serve in the army - too young, too old, unfit for whatever reason - and their Torah is a source of great merit. 

Note that even if every single able-bodied charedi yeshivah student were drafted, there would still be more people learning Torah than at any previous point in Jewish history. And there is especially valuable merit from the Torah being studied by young men who will be serving later in life, or who have already served, or who are in the army right now. (Last night, my daughter had a half-hour break from her duties on her army base; she went to the Beis haMidrash and we spent half an hour on the phone learning the pages of Maseches Shabbos that she took upon herself to learn in honor of a friend who had hoped to complete the masechta during his service but was killed last week.)

And there are merits other than Torah study, which from a religious Zionist perspective (and, I would strongly argue, a traditional Jewish perspective) are even greater. The merits of my daughter’s Torah study are eclipsed by the merit of her actually serving in the IDF; and that merit is in turn eclipsed by the merit of those who are moser nefesh to risk everything by serving in combat roles. The greatest merit in our national history is that of Avraham Avinu being ready to sacrifice his beloved son, not Moshe Rabbeinu learning Torah. As Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said, “Whenever I feel the need to pray at the graves of tzadikim, I go to Mount Herzl, to the graves of the soldiers who fell Al Kiddush Hashem.”

There are plenty of merits from people legitimately studying Torah, and there are even greater merits from people who serve in the army and are actually literally moser nefesh for the Jewish People. 

But, from a religious Zionist perspective, there is no merit at all from people who should be serving in the army and instead avoid their obligation, just like there is no merit from people who learn Torah instead of davening or instead of helping their wives. And, from a religious Zionist perspective, there is no national achdus when one large and growing sector of the population is avoiding its responsibility to share a very difficult national burden.

Yes, I am well aware that charedim see it entirely differently. But the point here is to explain the non-charedi perspective, and I think it should be possible for charedim to understand it.

Now let me turn to why such statements are perceived by non-charedim not only as religiously invalid, but also as offensive. 

The fact is that even from a charedi perspective, whereby yeshivah students are doing something of extraordinary value, it’s undeniable that it does not come at any personal risk or great sacrifice. Yeshivah students are not worried that they are going to be shot and killed in the Beis haMidrash, or captured and hauled off to Gaza. Kollel wives are not raising their children alone, worried for the lives of their husbands who are away in combat. 

Everyone knows that this is true, but not everyone appreciates its significance.

And it’s beyond that. 

Chaviv Rettig-Gur wrote that there is “no one without family and friends reeling from the Hamas onslaught, no one, including this writer, not overcome with anxiety for relatives or neighbors now called up to the war.” 

But that’s just not true. 

The majority of charedim do not have relatives or neighbors called up for war. They are anxious and worried, but there is simply no comparison when there is no immediate personal risk to loved ones. 

Almost everyone in the non-charedi community personally knows of someone who has been killed or captured; this is not the case for the majority of the charedi community. Almost everyone in the non-charedi community has family that are being called up, and is dreading what will happen; this is not the case for the majority of the charedi community.

Accordingly, when someone is living in a state of extreme anxiety for their loved ones as a result of the sacrifice that they are making, it’s hurtful to hear others who have avoided all such sacrifice and anxiety boasting that they are equally sharing the burden. It’s tone-deaf, it’s insensitive, and it creates resentment.

If you are charedi, I hope that you are joining the small but growing number of charedim who recognize that real achdus means sharing all responsibilities. 

If not, then I hope that you are at least helping in other ways, both material and spiritual. And if you are in yeshivah, or representing those in yeshivah, please do not cause bad feeling and resentment at this time. Respect those communities who are making sacrifices infinitely greater than that of your own community, sacrifices from which you benefit. 

If this causes conscious or subconscious feelings of guilt or inadequacy then you need to honestly acknowledge that and not let it cause cognitive dissonance. Give nothing but praise for those who are making the ultimate sacrifice. You can tell them that they are at the forefront of your thoughts, but do not try to tell them that your contribution is comparable.

Terrible things have happened and will yet happen. Let us at least take advantage of the opportunity to strive towards true achdus.

20 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just as you can't expect the PLO to preach peace with Israel after 75 years of telling them the opposite, you can't expect "The Gedolim' to suddenly announce "Okay, go enlist and get jobs!"

Anonymous said...

This shabbos my Chareidi Rav presented the DL perspective. I have good friends who are DL and have taken time to understand and share the Chareidi perspective. Every person is different, and by taking time to understand the perspectives of others we will all grow. I may be wrong, but - if the goal is achdus - I don’t think having everyone on a mission to share their own perspective is going to get us very far.

Anonymous said...

The weird thing is, achdus is always about chareidim getting closer to the secular society



Anonymous said...

There are always ppl on the brinks of every society, and charedim are no different, unfortunately some think, that once chareidim will serve there will be harmony in this country like the times of king Solomon, they fail to notice what's going on in the country right now, where the hate is actually between the secularists themselves, without any showing of it getting better


Agudah Kovod Zucher said...

They crammed a year's worth of propaganda into the parshas Noach Yated to shill for Agudah Fresser Avi Schnall & his NJ State level election campaign.

Whatever happened to the Daas Torah that unzerrah are not supposed to run for higher office, we are instead supposed to find einam Yeheedim who will cater to prevent sinas Yisroel backlash?

Agudah rabbonim themselves have criticized frummah kandidatten in previous elections in various locations that loi zu haderech. The Agudah rabbonim have also backhandedly criticized by extension the non-Agudah Rebbes who backed those kandidatten with an eye on maximizing welfare payola & $$ goodies for Chassidishe moisdos.

A bunch of Moetzes members who don't live in NJ also signed for Schnall.

Which of the gedolei Eretz Yisroel (after being told ALL the facts) approved of this radical departure from the Daas Torah going way back through the historia of Klal Yisroel?

The Fressers are fawning over Schnall as if he's the velt's askan when he's the one who galloped vee a fat ferd to Trenton to, among other avlos, pressure Murphy to kill as many people as possible in the early deadly waves of covid, and to enable the Gov's Woke toyevah agenda.

Anonymous said...

First Nathan Slifkin was denounced by the Orthodox as secular, posing as a charedei.

Agudah's Moetzes in America is strictly for the freebies at the annual Agudah Convention.

It takes very little "seichel" to see that Avi Schnall is just puffed up character, with little accomplishments for the Klal to his name.

Perhaps Zweibel was looking for a way of getting rid of him, I don't think he's that shrewd.

Anonymous said...

"As bugs bunny said "It's all over folks" "

For the record: It goes "That's all folks", and it was Porky Pig, not Bugs Bunny.

Anonymous said...

Avi Schnall is not the solution, he is the problem.

We repeat, the VAAD is not the solution, they are the problem.

On the other hand "Mr. Solution" is the solution for a toilet back-up.

Dusiznies said...

3:57

"First Nathan Slifkin was denounced by the Orthodox as secular, posing as a charedei."

In my eyes that, makes him more credible. I can attest to the fact that he is as Chareidie as you, I know him and his beautiful family.

Anonymous said...

ditto

Anonymous said...

Ludicrous hogwash.

From a former acquaintance of his

Anonymous said...

never let a crisis go to waste" ?

If/when Israel does get it's act together & make a total permanent radical alteration of the palestinians- possibly so

While they keep pulling the rest of us religious down their less than optimal rabbit hole, all the while forever positing international strawmen for their continued lack of accomplishment- better in the interim we stick with our old heimish modus o

Cohen Y said...

Slifkin is hardly a religious zionist
He's part of the liberal self aggrandizement orthodox who use zionism whenever it serves their/his purposes eg primarily as form of cudgel

Anonymous said...

Agudah's US spokesman R Avi Shafran blamed the HAMAS on "religious zionists and modern orthodox" in the Forward
https://forward.com/opinion/563955/jewish-community-israel-war-hamas/

Anonymous said...

I once took a loan from a chareidi. When it was time to pay it back,I offered to instead learn some mishnayos in his zechus. Didn’t work.

And in the same way charaidim can’t pay their dues in this material world with spiritual currency - no matter how much they believe in them.

Anonymous said...

For the record: "Ah theya ah theya that's all folks" and yes, Porky Pig's sign off

Larry Gornish said...

Amending the record, yes it was Porky Pig's sign off: "Ah theya ah theya, That's All Folks"

Yosef said...

DIN will you be joining the army?

Dusiznies said...

7:27
My children are.

Anonymous said...


Hope they are doing well. Keep us posted every time they eliminate a terrorist