This nurse is 100% correct ..... the proof is in the pudding as more and more young couples are getting divorced in the first year of marriage....
Parents pressured, perhaps worried that their "old katchke" daughter who is already 21 will never get married in our frum world, push their child to get married ASAP.
In the Yeshivishe World the boys are in the driver seats, only G-d knows why; they get lists and lists of resumes, the mothers of these "fancy glasses, pleated pants, Barcelino hats (now small rimmed), spoiled brats, demand that the girl have a profession, be "chinush" slim to the point of being anorexic. These guys even if they are 28, grab the naive wild-eyed 18 year-old fresh out of seminary, leaving the more mature, smarter 24 -28 year accomplished girls in the dust bin... The reason is because the boys are immature, have low self esteem because in their hearts of hearts they know that they don't compare in maturity and in education to any girl their age.
Most boys that come out of the Yeshiva System and I'm including Mir Yerushalyim, Brisk or Lakewood are bono-fide ama-ratzim.
There I said it...
Just yesterday in the shul that I daven, they asked a "Brisker" single boy to say something on the parsha (Mattos /Massah), during the 10 minute break between mincha & maariv.... he hemmed and hawed for the first 3 minutes, scratching his head searching the shelves for a non-existent sefer, and then when we asked him to say anything that he learned that very day ..he gave us a blank stare..... this particular boy ... the sweetest and the most handsome guy and the best "catch" in the neighborhood will probably demand that the girl parents buy him an apartment and support him for the first 52 years of marriage..
Just to put this in perspective ... when we ask any working guy to say anything on the parsha on the 10 minute break ...even on a whim, they will come up with a beautiful vort that is relevant to the times....
Just two weeks ago on Shabbos Parshas Balak, a "kollel guy" gave a half hour pilpul on a sugye in Yavomos, which I guess he was learning, to an audience that were "Yodea sefer" but no one could decipher it and like an airplane that lost its landing gear he couldn't land ..... as far as I'm concerned he wasted my time and I consider this "bitul Torah"and I'm wondering "how will I ever get that half hour back." Mind you that in this parsha even a donkey talked.
The shul advertised this "Shmooze to Nowhere," weeks before.
The shul advertised this "Shmooze to Nowhere," weeks before.
This guy has been in kolel for 13 years and is being supported by his wife who also takes care of a home with 7 children.
The girls are far better educated, they are knowledgeable in Tanach with all the relevant commentaries, they have more than a basic understanding in Shulchan Aruch ... and know how to cook and bake and are all around accomplished . In addition, they have profession that will support their ama-ratzim husbands.
There is something very wrong with our education of our boys when they know how to give "chaburois" but don't have a clue what Rashi wants in any given pasuk in the Torah, nor do they know or care to know Tanach.... most of them are very machmir in their lifestyles but are ignorant in basic halachos..
It's no wonder that the Gedoilim today are all close to 100 years old, because the Yeshivas are not producing any Talmedei Chachamim, just mass producing like a Ford Auto Plant, right-wing fanatics that cannot wait for the Zionists to arrest one of them so they can run out to the streets and block traffic.
As of this writing there isn't a Gadol in the entire world that is less than 75 years old .... I remember growing up when Gedoilim were in their 30 and 40's .... those were from an era where most talmidim got a very rounded education which included secular studies..
I know that I didn't even get to address the letter yet..
But I don't have an answer to the nurse that wrote to Flatbush Girl...she has a lot of company in a frum world gone mad!
But I don't have an answer to the nurse that wrote to Flatbush Girl...she has a lot of company in a frum world gone mad!
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7 comments:
Dear DIN, you have raised a number of valid and truthful points, but please allow me to respond in kind.
Number one, regarding the Shidduch "crisis" and the yeshivah system, it is my belief that the crux of the problem cannot be laid solely at the feet of the Yeshivahs and the ridiculous "resume" program. By the way, a shidduch ought not to be a job application, and it is an unfortunate addition to our way of life. It is a relatively recent contribution conceived up by shadchunim who do not have or do not wish to take the time to thoroughly investigate each prospective shidduch.
But what choice do we have? Well, actually I might come up with a suggestion that can prove helpful. You see, it is not only Yeshivah bochorim that are so independently selective. The "older" girls can also be irrationally discriminating and sometimes reject shidduchim capriciously. For example, I could suggest to the nurse who wrote to Flatbushgirl a shidduch that some might consider the ultimate "find". I might be thinking of a bochor in his mid 20's from a good family with substitutional wealth and standing in our society. This young man is an accomplished Talmid Chochem, having written and published a number of Seforim. He has great social skills, is highly articulate, has a great singing voice and accompanies himself ably on a guitar. He is six feet tall, weighs 180 pounds and is exceedingly fair of face.
The young man is also very worldly and highly intelligent with an Master's in Engineering from Texas A & M University. He is a very caring individual with great sensitivity for the needs of others. His friends say that he would give them the shirt off his back. Did I mention that he is also very frum and is very much medaktate on what he eats, where he eats, and when he eats. He also is very careful not to associate with people of unsavory character.
So what's the catch? Welllllllllll, it's sort of a long story, but the gist of it is that the boy comes from a Chasiddishe family. His family is very proud of him and very supportive of his choices. He therefor loves them dearly and would like to continue keeping their tradition, which means he wishes to wear the Chasiddish garb and intends to sport a Shtreimel after marriage.
A young man with these qualifications is difficult to "package", and he understands that a shuidduch appropriate to his personal needs are not necessarily found in his social circles and he would welcome shidduchim that might be outside of his usual comfort zone.
Whenever I would suggest this kind of a shidduch to a girl with a somewhat similar background to that of the nurse who wrote to Flatbushgirl it would be flat out rejected. Chasiiddish? No way. Absolutely nothing to talk about. Counterintuitively, it is the supposedly idealistic non-prejudicial left wing of the Chareidi community that is the most bias against anything that smacks of different from themselves in the slightest.
And why is that? Well, for one, it certainly doesn't help matters when in blogs similar to DIN, when finds mostly contempt and ridicule towards the Chassidic community with focus mainly on its failures rather than its accomplishments. Who can blame a girl for refusing to associate with Chassidim? I can imagine what would go through her mind. If she were engaged to marry a Chasiddish man, how could she show off the engagement party pictures. So which one is your Choson? You mean the one with the beard and peyos? You're kidding, right? I mean he's kind of cute, sorta, ..............if you like the type. And the look of pity in the eyes of her friends? Shudder the thought.
So, I humbly suggest that perhaps, just perhaps in shidduchim might someone set aside their prejudices and look at the other side of the aisle. You might be surprised at what goodies you might find. Perhaps, there is no "shidduch crisis" after all. There might, however, be a values crisis and DIN isn't helping.
Cyrano
I know many girls like the nurse who actually married Chassidishe guys ....
I had a friend, I say "had" since he is unfortunately no longer among the living, he was a chassidishe guy, that was a professor and taught in a University that will remain unnamed, he was also an author of text books on international law still used in Harvard and Columbia, he was married to a modern girl a shrew that probably cut his life short because of all the cruelty she heaped on this poor guy...
I also know other chassidishe guys, very sharp business people, that were not into learning that married modern girls that they met on their own and are very happy ...but these guys fell in love..no official shadchan was involved..
I remember well, not too long ago.. when Chassidim would pawn off their bums, now called "tuna beigels" to modern girls from poor families .. with promises of riches ..and roses ..
I remember very well when Satmar was on a campaign to "save" poor Iranian and Moroccan girls, supposedly to keep them frum, brought them up in their own communities cutting them off from their parents (same exact thing that they accused the Zionists of doing) and then married them off to the dregs of their community ... only to end in disaster.
Now let me clue you into a secret .... most modern girls do not like the "chassidishe look" they don't care for it and some even turned off by the facial hair ..... and I'm not even going into the levush.
I know since my wife is a successful not-professional shadchan for the heimishe community .... she does it l'shem shamyim.
Most of these modern girls who are by and large professionals, are serious about their careers and do not waste their time reading blogs. 99.9% of them have never heard of DIN.... they formed their opinions by either having direct experience with them at work or by living in close proximity to them. They don't need blogs to convince them to marry someone they believe is not of their educational stature. They probably read the secular media online where unfortunately the Chassidim make their own news and headlines ....
Having said all that, in the chassidishe world, the reverse is true, the girls are in the driver's seat; I haven't addressed that yet, which I really should since most of my readers come from Heimishe homes.
The scenario that you picture where a great educated and all around accomplished Chassidishe guy would look to marry a nice accomplished modern girl ... is not very realistic ....
not saying it cannot happen or won't but it's very very rare...
they live in entire different worlds, One in Mars and the other Pluto and very seldom will their orbits meet, unless they meet on a job where they build a working friendly relationship first and then gradually manage to fall for each other...
It's hard enough to get along with a spouse with the same exact background, it's very difficult to see eye to eye with someone from a completely different background.
I would suggest that this Chassidishe guy look into his very own community ..it will take time but I'm sure there is a wonderful girl out there from a chassidishe background, he will be much happier talking his own familiar lingo and having similar growing up experiences.
When for example, I was dating many moons ago, guys and girls that came from Hungarian or Polish backgrounds tried to marry in their own backgrounds and circles ... in fact if they did mix ..they would say that the best match was a Polish Husband and an Hungarian wife..but that was then .... Yeshivash guys would never marry Hungarian ..never... chas veshulim!
it all sounds silly now ....
and the Hungarians and the Polish boys and girls had a lot more in common than a Modern girl would have with a Chassidishe guy today ..
and it's not at all about "prejudices" it's about the "familiar..
Good Luck
While you make some important points, some of your words are over the top and incorrect. Like the two snippets I post below.
"when we ask any working guy to say anything on the parsha on the 10 minute break ...even on a whim, they will come up with a beautiful vort that is relevant to the times.... "
Every "working boy" is so great? Lav davka.
"The girls are far better educated, they are knowledgeable in Tanach with all the relevant commentaries"
They know "all the meforshim"? Not quite.
(Sorry, posted this in wrong section earlier)
DIN--- well said!!
Yeshiva University has largely solved most of the issues you raise, thanks for your thoughts
Dear DIN, I appreciate your response and I hear your points, but I cannot fully agree with you. John F. Kennedy once said , "Others see what is and ask why. I see what can be and ask why not?".
You correctly state the fact, that there exists a wide cultural gap among our relatively small Chareidi community. But you accept this fact as immutable, to the detriment of the entire community. Move on, you suggest. The gulf between the slight hint of Chassidish culture however tenuous and the the other Chareidim is too vast to traverse. It isn't prejudice you assert; just people being more comfortable with there own kind. (To me this sounds like good old fashioned prejudice. I mean, it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.)
Here is where we disagree: You think change is virtually impossible. I think change is imperative for our survival. And why not change? Or rather change back to the time when yeshivish did marry Hungarian. If one's commitment to Torah and Mitzvohs is the sole force in one's life, as the yeshivah system suggests it ought to be how can the style of clothing or headgear be more compelling than Torah values? Is the fact that one party pronounces it kugel while the other, kigel more important than Ahavas Torah or Yiras Shomayim? If so, than we have failed miserably to instill true Torah values in our children.
They say, "If it ain't broke don't fix it." But it is broke and we must fix it. It is not to late to turn back the clock to a time when Judaism was better defined and far less parochial.
This blog limits the lengths of any posts. I will continue with a second post.
(DIN, would be so kind as to allow me to continue, for I believe my points have some merit).
Which leads me to another point which you raise regarding Yeshiva education in general. I vehemently affirm your assertion regarding the paucity of Torah knowledge among many (too many, if you ask me) boys that come out of the Yeshivah system. A generation or two ago these boys would never have been in yeshivah in the first place. They would have gone to college and would hav e entered a profession. Let's face it. Not everyone is cut out to be a true Yeshivah man.
So how did we get to this point? It is my understanding that until the 1960's yeshivas were not a sine quo non for Orthodox Jews. In fact, many of our older Torah leaders are products of American public schools! Unbelievable, but true. So how did we get to the point that no-one with the slightest connection to Orthodox Judaism would ever dream of sending a child to public school?
The answer is that a great change had taken place in American culture during the 1960's. Middle America in the 1950's was a safe place. The secular world did not openly embrace lifestyles that were hostile to our community and we could accept what America had to offer, thank you very much.
But that changed in the 1960's. The spirit of tolerance introduced intolerance to civility and good citizenship. No longer could you send a child to public school without dreading that in one day your child could become a drug addict or raped in a school hallway.
What to do? What to do? Aha! came the answer. we'll send our son to a Y-E-S-H-I-V-A! Yes, a yeshiva that's what we'll do. And the girls to a Beis Yaakov. So, just as during the Korean War a host of "draft dodging" yeshivas cropped out as a haven from the Selective Service System there arose the concept of the "crack dodging" yeshiva where our children would be safe from the pervasive drug culture. The downside of course was that the yeshivas would inculcate the children with radical old wordly values, but it was a small price to pay for the security provided by the yeshiva world. It might even be said that John Gotti was a greater Marbitz Torah in America than Rav Ahron Kotler.
The bottom line is that yeshivahs today are not designed to raise Talmidei Chachomim; they are meant to keep our children off the streets. In that endeavor they are largely successful. Yes, there are many, too many, children who fall between the cracks, but look what the secular world has given us in this time period. Harvey Weinstein and Jeffery Epstein and other miscreants too numerous to mention.
Other than taking a good hard look at ourselves, I have no suggestions on how to improve our society.
Cyrano
"Other than taking a good hard look at ourselves,"
We have all been stuck in our homes for almost four months now...
judging from what I post ... No one not even serious people are doing that"
In fact I think this virus has brought out the worst in us ..
.
You criticised me yesterday and even accused me of throwing wood in the proverbial fire....
I will shock you now..... I am sitting on hundreds of horror stories from our frum community... yup!
Being a blogger, people send me photos and movie clips that would make your hair stand on end ...
I glean and only comment on a few of them and just to make it a bit light, I throw in some comedy and I really try to refrain from making our community look very bad .... because deep down ..our community with all its faults is as Korach put it "Kulam Ke'doishim"
It's true ...I wouldn't exchange us for any other nation ..
Having said that .. my following is "Unzereh" our own, and yes "outsiders" peek in .. I write because I am frustrated to no end ..
I am a product of Chassidishe and Oberlander Yeshivos, I learned by the greatest ... One of my rebbes was a talmud muvhak of the last Brisker Rav ...I saw with my own eyes what a Gadol looked like ...
to mention just a few..
R' Aron Kotler, Rav Shnuer Kotler, The Bobover Rebbe Reb Shloima, The Satmar Rebbe R Yoelish, The Kloizenberger, The Bais Yisrael from Ger, The Old Tzelemer Rav, The Old Papa Rav, The Mattesdorfer Rebbe, The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Gustman, Rav Simcha Wasserman, The Tosher Rebbe, The first Skulaner Rebbe,The First Navimeinnsker, Etc Etc ... these people I saw with my own eyes and had the merit to observe their davening, their learning...how.... they looked and acted
And I lived in an era where only survivors lived ...I saw what their values were ... I admired their courage despite all they endured.
I am not perfect myself ... far from it ... but I cannot deal with Hypocrisy...
Let me indulge you with a dvar torah ..if I may
When our mama Rivka got pregnant finally, she was very worried ...why?
Rashi says... because when she passed the Temples of Idol worshippers, the baby in her belly tried getting out.... when she passed the Bais Medresh, again the baby pushed to get out ...
She said to herself ... what's with this baby?
So she went to the Rav and asked what all this signified ...
The Rav said "Don't you worry" "You have twins... one is going to be a tzaddik and the other a rasha"
Question: In the Torah it looks like she was satisfied with this answer and went her merry way ...
Why?
If I heard that one of my children were going to be wicked I would be devastated ... we don't see her being very upset...
Answer: She thought that she only had one child in her stomach and he was going to be a hypocrite ,,,dressed like a tzaddik but really a rasha..when she heard that she will have twins, she was relieved ... better a wicked son that everyone knows is wicked than a son that looks like tzaddik and is a rasha!...
This is what my by blog is all about ....
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