According to the some ראשונים, (רלב"ג, חזקוני, *רמב"ן פרשת ויחי)
קבר רחל is not in בית לחם (south of Yerushalayim)
but in רמהnorth* of Yerushalayim- (Ramat Shlomo-Shuafat area)
*רש"י in פרשת ויחי quotes the פסיקתא רבתי " Yaakov told Yosef that he buried רחל on the road ע"פ הדיבור so she will help her children when נבוזארדן will take captive the בני ישראל from ירושלים to בבל. When they will be passing קבר רחל, then רחל will come out from her קבר and cry - 'רחל מבכה על בניה וכו--"
If קבר רחל is in Bais Lechem (south of ירושלים) they would not be passing her קבר on the way to בבל which is north of ירושלים.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HOWCAN YOU DAVEN AT קבר רחל?
The גשר החיים כ"ט ס"ק י"א writes,"R. Shmuel Salant zt"l
was מקפיד not to Daven in the inner room of קבר רחל,
so as not be עובר the איסור of לועג לרש".
11 comments:
Garnel Ironheart
said...
Bingo! Some great authorities simply didn't know geography. Others didn't connect that multiple towns had the same name in Tanach times. Yaakov Avinu's journey home and the description of where Rachel Imeinu's keve is make it north of Jerusalem, likely in Ephraim territory. This is corroborated by the mention of the tomb in Shmuel where it's clearly near Ramah. Now watch how made people will get when you remind them that Lag BaOmer isn't Rasbhi's yahrzeit
Ramban changed his opinion after his Aliya and agreed about Bet Lechem. Second, thousands of Jews lived south of Bet Lechem and certainly passed Rachel's Tomb travelling to Bavel.
No proof of your theory, nobody knows exact route , but logic is they didn't climb hills in Efraim while escaping and Rachel wasn't buried on a hill either.
Nobody's yartzeit date falls on the same day any given year. Even holidays are first proclaimed by batei din and then in shamayim. These are minor points It's interesting for discussion only.
Does it really bother you that hundreds of thousands of people have a place they feel their hearts open up and their tears flow with pain in tefilah to the borai olam? Does taking away a place of comfort and strength from a tired nation really so important to you? Are you takkeh such a farbissiner???
Does it bother you that a mother of a sick child has a place she can beg the ribbono shel olam for koach to keep smile for her daughter for a few more days or hours???
If you are what even one Yeshiva can produce I dont know why anyone would send their son to any Yeshiva.
6:33 I hear what you are saying; and I believe that everyone should daven where they feel a connection to the RBS"O Having said that, She should go pour her heart out at Har Herzl where thousands were Moiser Nefesh for Klall Yisrael and where we know for sure where the burial is!
There too but many of us older yiddin remember grandmothers who cried for and to Mama Rochel and had little sketches or tin plates of kever rochel on their modest apartments in the Bronx and the Lower East Side and anywhere else Europe dumped them.
The kever rochel we know is the one at which our grandmothers cried the second they first laid eyes on it in their old age. It is something that lets young girls disconnected from their mothers to feel reconnected with a deceased grandmother.
You don't want to be the person who messes with that.
Let klal yisroel live. Let klal yisroel breath. Let them flourish without strangling them with nharishkeit and agendas. I can cry for the chayallim on har hertzel without burying anyone else's neshoma.
Those who write "You don't want to be the person who messes with that." Have run out of arguments! Those grandmothers who cried would have ALL gone to Har Herzl to cry for those who gave their lives in this century so they can be free in their homes to cry!
"dont mess with that" "don't mess with this" They kidnapp old men from nursing homes, put them in charge of their parties, and then when you criticize them they yell: "dont mess with that" "don't mess with this" We are tired of guys like that lecturing us. If you put a Gadol in charge of a political party, then expect people to criticize them
You're obviously angry with a system to which I do not belong or hold any alliance.
This is not an us vs them issue. It has no connection to davening at har herzel. (I'm personally amazed wives, mothers, grandmothers, daughters and sisters of fallen chayallim do stop on the way to kevurah at har herzel, grab chareidi roshei yeshiva by their beards and drag them to their son's/husband's/father's funeral and force them, at gunpoint if necessary to fill the grave by hand while their heiliger talmidim standby helplessly.. I'm not sure they SHOULD but I'm amazed that they dont.
My point was and 8i, there is no rest to disturb the connection the location create for some people.
11 comments:
Bingo!
Some great authorities simply didn't know geography. Others didn't connect that multiple towns had the same name in Tanach times.
Yaakov Avinu's journey home and the description of where Rachel Imeinu's keve is make it north of Jerusalem, likely in Ephraim territory. This is corroborated by the mention of the tomb in Shmuel where it's clearly near Ramah.
Now watch how made people will get when you remind them that Lag BaOmer isn't Rasbhi's yahrzeit
Ramban changed his opinion after his Aliya and agreed about Bet Lechem. Second, thousands of Jews lived south of Bet Lechem and certainly passed Rachel's Tomb travelling to Bavel.
That's not a proof. They were heading north and then east so they'd also have passed the northern potential site.
No proof of your theory, nobody knows exact route , but logic is they didn't climb hills in Efraim while escaping and Rachel wasn't buried on a hill either.
Nobody's yartzeit date falls on the same day any given year. Even holidays are first proclaimed by batei din and then in shamayim. These are minor points It's interesting for discussion only.
Does it really bother you that hundreds of thousands of people have a place they feel their hearts open up and their tears flow with pain in tefilah to the borai olam? Does taking away a place of comfort and strength from a tired nation really so important to you? Are you takkeh such a farbissiner???
Does it bother you that a mother of a sick child has a place she can beg the ribbono shel olam for koach to keep smile for her daughter for a few more days or hours???
If you are what even one Yeshiva can produce I dont know why anyone would send their son to any Yeshiva.
6:33
I hear what you are saying; and I believe that everyone should daven where they feel a connection to the RBS"O
Having said that,
She should go pour her heart out at Har Herzl where thousands were Moiser Nefesh for Klall Yisrael and where we know for sure where the burial is!
There too but many of us older yiddin remember grandmothers who cried for and to Mama Rochel and had little sketches or tin plates of kever rochel on their modest apartments in the Bronx and the Lower East Side and anywhere else Europe dumped them.
The kever rochel we know is the one at which our grandmothers cried the second they first laid eyes on it in their old age. It is something that lets young girls disconnected from their mothers to feel reconnected with a deceased grandmother.
You don't want to be the person who messes with that.
Let klal yisroel live. Let klal yisroel breath. Let them flourish without strangling them with nharishkeit and agendas. I can cry for the chayallim on har hertzel without burying anyone else's neshoma.
Those who write
"You don't want to be the person who messes with that."
Have run out of arguments!
Those grandmothers who cried would have ALL gone to Har Herzl to cry for those who gave their lives in this century so they can be free in their homes to cry!
"dont mess with that" "don't mess with this"
They kidnapp old men from nursing homes, put them in charge of their parties, and then when you criticize them they yell:
"dont mess with that" "don't mess with this"
We are tired of guys like that lecturing us.
If you put a Gadol in charge of a political party, then expect people to criticize them
PS
The "grandmothers cried for Mama Ruchel", NOT for where she was buried!!
You're obviously angry with a system to which I do not belong or hold any alliance.
This is not an us vs them issue. It has no connection to davening at har herzel. (I'm personally amazed wives, mothers, grandmothers, daughters and sisters of fallen chayallim do stop on the way to kevurah at har herzel, grab chareidi roshei yeshiva by their beards and drag them to their son's/husband's/father's funeral and force them, at gunpoint if necessary to fill the grave by hand while their heiliger talmidim standby helplessly.. I'm not sure they SHOULD but I'm amazed that they dont.
My point was and 8i, there is no rest to disturb the connection the location create for some people.
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