In Brisk they learn the four sections of the Shulchan Aruch, but what they don't teach the boys is the "fifter shulchan Aruch" which in Yiddish is called "seichel"
This Brisker needs to go back and learn for another 10 years before he dates.
He still can't figure out why the girl dropped the shidduch.
Question: What do they teach in Brisk? Do they ever learn plain chumash? The very first sentence in parshas Noach is.... "Noach ISH tzaddik" before you strive to be a tzaddik, you need to be an "Ish" a "mentch"....
I was wondering if this guy has a mother? Would he want someone leaving his mother on the street if she G-d forbid fell and there is no one around to help her except for a "Brisker?"
What a "Shoiteh!"
21 comments:
No pikuach nefesh so of course he cannot touch her
Sheesh. On all the dates with my husband, I stood between him and the dogs. Most of our dates were in Manhattan.
Manners and etiquette come after basic halachah. It can be yaharog v'al yaavor to touch a girl if it will cause any hirhuruim. The Nazi's had perfect manners and etiquette, and where extremely polite when they tortured our ancestors. See this famous story with Rav Hutner (https://www.aish.com/tp/i/rabbi-frand/564607911.html).
DIN I expect better from you.
8:26
Be careful what you wish for. You better hope some brisker tuchis doesn't read your comment and leaves your mother on the sidewalk in a pile of crap when slipping on the ice in "fakewood"
Comparing helping his date up from the floor to the Nazis? You sick fuck
I would be curious to know the name of a Roshei Yeshiva that would pasken that a Yeshiva bochur shouldn't run and help a lady falling on a sidewalk or help her up once she is down. I cannot imagine the huge chillul hashem that would occur should a goy or someone not yet a shomar Shabbos witness something like that! Is this what is being thought ? Really?
Are the boys in Yesivah being explicitly thought that if they are on a date, and the girl slips and falls and is having a hard time getting back up, that he should just be standing there like a "shmuck"?
I wonder what the Rosh Yeshiva's Rebbitzin would think if she fell and slipped and her husbands talmidim walked by and ignored her.
Would they leave Rebbetzin Kanievsky a"h on the floor?
"Zu Torah Vezuh Schara"
8:26
A boy without "hirhurim" on a date should remain single. There is only 3 cardinal sins that "yaharog v'al yaavor" applies, you am haaretz!
Helping a girl up that slipped is not in the category of "giluie arayois" even if he had "hirhurim" which is very normal for a bochur on a date, who has I hope hormones.
In Ger they have a solution for their bochrim or even adults with "hirhurim" they put them on meds, Just recently we read about a father from Ger who murdered his 13 year-old son while on these meds in Ashdod. The doctor was arrested and will probably get 25 years.
I hope you are not married with children, because with your attitude you will make one abusive husband and father.
Back almost 40 years ago, when my wife and I were dating , the word was out that if a girl slipped and needed help, you helped her up. The Jewish papers all had pictures of women and girls. You had to deal with hour own hirhurim. What has happened? My Chumra of the Month Club membership expired years ago. I have my hands full with actual halachic requirements.
I don't understand why everyone is having problems with my previous manners and hirhurim comment. It's very very simple. A man may not touch a woman (excluding 1st degree relatives) no matter what age, unless it is pikuach nefesh. A woman falling on the floor (99% of the time) is not pekuach nefesh. Chanele T, any Rosh Yeshiva that is orthodox and knows halacha. I cannot fathom why there is confusion here. It is not polite for a man to pick up a woman that has fallen. It is ossur. I said it CAN be yaarog al yaavor in certain situations. If a someone puts a gun to my head and says touch a woman, you take the bullet and don't touch her (if it will cause hirhurim and then fall into the category of Giluy Arayos according to some opinions). Being Shomer Negiah is not some frum yeshivish minhag or chumrah, it is a basic tenet of judaism just like being Shomer Shabbos. I was not comparing picking up a woman to the Nazi's, I am simply expressing that manners for manners sake is not a Jewish concept. Even the Nazis had good manners. Jews follow Halacha, and then manners.
11:38
You comment is so crazy on so many levels.
First of all דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה
You are saying that leaving Rebbetzin Kanievsky on the sidewalk is perfectly fine? Is that Torah? If that's Torah I don't want any part of it.
Your bizarre explanation of " I said it CAN be yaarog al yaavor in certain situation" is sick. We are not talking about someone "putting a gun to your head" we are talking about the example I gave of Rebbetzin Kanievsky slipping on the ice and lying there and needing help getting up. You are saying that that is "assur" so let me tell you that you are one very sick puppy, someone who should never have children or get married. You sound like a guy who comes frum Baalei Teshuva, the nutty ones. Those of us FFB, have the "fifth shulchan Aruch" which is "brains" something that you lack and will never acquire. Hey why don't you ask YOUR Rosh Yeshiva if he would let Rebbetzin Kanievsky lie on the sidewalk. We are all here and we want to hear what he has to say. Also since you are so sure of the halacha I dare you to identify yourself so that we normal people will know to not make shidduchim with your family who would let old ladies slipping on ice stay there until a goy comes to help her up!
11:38
The gemarrah mentions that a tana picked up a kallah and put her on his shoulder. Yes, you will answer well he was a big rabbi. The torah was given to all including to "big rabbis" Either you can or you cannot!
So It seems that it isn't so clear cut as you make it. Someone before said that you are a big "am haaretz" well he was spot on.
How do hatzala men help with womwn who fall or are sick
"Big Am Haaretz" here again!
1) דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה is not a blanket heter to do whatever you want. It's derech eretz to shake a woman's hand. that doesn't make it mutar!!!
2) You are misunderstanding what I am saying. It might not be yaarog al yaavor to pick up a lady. It is definitely yaarog al yavor to affectionately touch another woman.
3) Rebbetzen Kanievsky knows halacha, she would be disgusted if I touched her. She'd rather lay on the ground and wait for a woman to help her. (Unless it's pikuach nefesh)
4) Lol calm down. I'm happily married and my wife wouldn't want me to pick her up if she fell. I just checked!
5) Yes I know about the Gemara in Kesuvos 17a (despite being an am haaretz!) Rav Acha put the bride on his shoulders. The rabbanim asked him can we do it aswell and he said "if brides are comparable for you to a beam (rashi explains: no hirhurim caused), fine, but if not, no." In 2021 our sick minds don't look at woman as beams. When you say "Either you can or you cannot" Yes correct YOU cannot. This tanna didn't look at woman how YOU do!
6)THE VERY NEXT LINE IN THE GEMARA SAYS IT IS FORBITTED TO LOOK AT A MARRIED WOMAN!!!!!!
7) The torah says in vayikra 18:6 "Lo Sikravu Legalos Ervah" Do not even come near to arayos. This includes touching!
8) Look at the Rambam Hilchos Issure Biah Chapter 21- It is forbidden to make motions or wink or laugh or act frivolously or smell the perfume or gaze at/with and Ervah. "A person who looks at even a small finger of a woman with the intent of deriving pleasure is considered as if he looked at her genitalia." But I am the am haaretz here!
Anonymous:
You wrote
"It's very very simple. A man may not touch a woman (excluding 1st degree relatives) no matter what age, unless it is pikuach nefesh. . . . If someone puts a gun to my head and says touch a woman, you take the bullet and don't touch her (if it will cause hirhurim and then fall into the category of Giluy Arayos according to some opinions). ..."
I'd appreciate your posting your sources to the above, which you present as basic halacha.
I believe that basic halacha (even in interpretation of the Rambam and possibly not like Shulchan Aruch)-- at least according to many, (see Rav Ovadia Yosef, Shach, Pnei Yehoshua, etc -- is that the TORAH prohibition is (at worst) limited to situations where the INTENT (ie. the MOTIVATION) is sexual pleasure or where the INTENT (MOTIVATION) is as a preliminary to intercourse or where the TYPE of touching is sexual (hugging, kissing, etc).
Touching of a different nature would still be forbidden, but is at worst a Rabbinnic prohibition, not a TORAH prohibition.
,
Hence, the situation does not require yeharaig v'al ya'avor, even where one is told that they MUST touch a certain woman or be killed.
In the situation described above, where the touching is for the purpose of helping another human being, I believe it is certainly permitted. And even if the boy knows he would become aroused (let's say), given that his INTENT and his MOTIVATION wasn't to CAUSE himself to become aroused, it would seem to be at worst Rabbinnic in nature and therefore permitted in a circumstance like this.
4:37
Reading your comments one can clearly see that you come from a family where women are not held in high esteem. You seem to have an answer, albeit crazy, to every reasonable explanation on this thread.
You say that "I'm happily married and my wife wouldn't want me to pick her up if she fell. I just checked!" I don't believe that for one moment, from your comments one observes a frustrated former kollel guy who started learning late in life and comes from a family where "sholom bayis" is a challenge. The fact that your wife wouldn't want you to "pick her up" shows that she knows you and your family very well, or is in fact sicker than you. And that segues with your stupid comment that Rebbetzin Kanievski if she slipped and fell on the floor would "rather lay on the ground and wait for a woman to help her. (Unless it's pikuach nefesh)." This shows that you are one cold-hearted nut.
The reason people on this thread are repeatedly calling you "an am haaretz" is not so much because of your limited knowledge but of your lack of understanding of what you actually learnt, and that is very dangerous to klall yisrael, to have a guy parading and masquerading as a "Talmid Chachem" while being a cold hearted clueless "achzir"
You parrot that "THE VERY NEXT LINE IN THE GEMARA SAYS IT IS FORBITTED TO LOOK AT A MARRIED WOMAN!!!!!!" proves my previous points.
First of all we are talking about a girl on a date, second of all when the Gemmarah talks about "looking at a married woman" the gemarrah is not talking about your mother slipping and falling into a pile of crap and someone (not like you) helping her up.
Your asinine comment where you quote " The torah says in vayikra 18:6 "Lo Sikravu Legalos Ervah" Do not even come near to arayos. This includes touching!" is not talking about helping your date get up after she slipped and fell. The Torah is talking about people who you are prohibited from marrying. The Torah is not talking about a girl on a date that you hope to marry, and the Torah is certainly not talking and warning us not to pick up Rebbitzin Kanievsky after she slipped and fell on the sidewalk.
Then you end with the following bizarre quote
" Look at the Rambam Hilchos Issure Biah Chapter 21- It is forbidden to make motions or wink or laugh or act frivolously or smell the perfume or gaze at/with and Ervah. "A person who looks at even a small finger of a woman with the intent of deriving pleasure is considered as if he looked at her genitalia." But I am the am haaretz here!"
The above quote actually proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are not only a confirmed "am haaretz" but a cruel one at that.
Again, we are talking about a guy on a date whose date slipped and fell on the sidewalk and he refused to help her, he isn't smelling her perfume, he isn't winking at her as she is lying on the sidewalk in pain"
In addition, the Rambam isn't talking about a guy on a date. a guy on a date does "gaze at the girl" to see if he is attracted to her sexually and does
"laugh" and acts "frivolously,"
Mr Tzaddik. The Torah wasn't giving to "malachim" the Torah was given to human beings who have "hirhurim" and who have when they are bochrim raging hormones.
The Chassidim have it right, they meet once at home for an hour and don't like the litvishe "take girls out on dates"
And you are a stubborn "am haaretz" and maybe hopefully you learnt something from this exchange
4:37
All your chazal quotes have nothing to do with our story, but what we do learn from your comments is that you should go to work, because obviously you are not cut out to learn as you seem not to understand a word that you did learn. A guy who would leave his wife and an old lady in pain on a sidewalk is obviously not a true Ben Torah and hasn't learned the basic rule of חסד ואמתץ Notice that where ever it says in the torah חסד ואמת, it states חסד before it states אמת.
because if you will start with אמת you will never get to חסד.
Ok ok ok. Stubborn Am Haaretz back here again.
I'm loving this chavrusa session with all my internet friends.
1) Hatzala and Doctor's is a whole separate sugya.
2) Again, you misunderstood: I wasn't saying picking up a lady is yaarog al yaavor.
3) "it would seem to be at worst Rabbinnic in nature and therefore permitted in a circumstance like this." Why is it permitted?
4) To make it clear. I asked my wife if she would have wanted me to pick her up had she fell when we were dating. She would have been horrified if I touched her (unless life saving)
5) Your deductions and assumptions about my upbringing, relationships, current profession and attitudes to woman are extremely entertaining!
6) You are mixing up all my points in to one big mess. I tried to keep them separate with a clear cut numbered bracket system but this seams to go over your heads. I am well aware of the halachos related to dating. It is 100% mutar to look at a woman for the purposes of marriage. (The gemara in kiddushin actually says it's ossur to get married without seeing your wife first incase you are disgusted by her!) Points 5) 6) and 7) were all proving the stringency of inappropriate conduct with women. Nothing to do with dating or even the case of a woman falling down. They were simply brought to back up my point that shomer negiah is not some chumrah or minhag. I mentioned the issur of looking at woman to stress how serious these areas are, that you cannot even stare at them never mind pick them up!
7)In direct relation to a woman that has fallen, I do not understand what the heter is to pick up a woman who has fallen. It is polite, and good manners, and chessed, and etiquette and derech eretz to pick up the woman. Despite all that it doesn't necassrily make it mutar! As I said. It's polite to shake a woman's hand, doesn't make it mutar!
8) You can bring me all your droshas about chessed and emes and derech eretz kodmah letorah etc etc etc, none of this takes precedence over what the halacha tells you to do! It doesn't say Derech Eretz Kodma L'Halacha!
9) I am enjoying this immensely so please continue the insults, hatred, trolling etc
10:38
Love the way you are backtracking when caught like a deer in headlights. Now picking up a girl that fell is no longer "Yehereg Ve'al Yaavor". Now looking and gazing at a girl on a date is ok... How quickly you dumped the Rambam and Parshas Va'yikra.
"Derech Eretz Kodma L'Halacha" is no where to be found yet "Derech Eretz Kadma Le'Torah" is in Pirkei Avot.
You are one very naive fool and continue making a mockery of our beautiful Torah and Halchos. You make yourself into such a tzaddik yet you continue to surf the internet which no rabbi permits. Get off and help your poor abused wife off the floor.
Anonymous:
You asked, regarding one of the things I wrote,
"3) 'it would seem to be at worst Rabbinnic in nature and therefore permitted in a circumstance like this.' Why is it permitted?"
Not sure why you're asking "Why is it Permitted?".
Surely, you are aware there's a difference of opinion as to whether non-affectionate touching is D'Orayyssa, D'Rabbonon, or perhaps even permissible outright (certainly for extenuating circumstances, like shaking hands within a business environment).
Surely you are aware that Rabbinnic prohibitions (assuming it's even forbidden in the first place) may be set aside for extenuating circumstances, in this case being kavod haBri'os.
גדול כבוד הבריות שדוחה את לא תעשה שבתורה
In the case at hand, the boy should have ASKED: "Would you mind if I help you up?"
If the girl said (as your wife would) "Yes!!!!!! I DO MIND!!!!!! Chas v'SHolom!!!!!!!''), then he should honor her wishes, now that he's shown her the appropriate respect and dignity.
And if the girl said, Thank You! Yes, I very much would appreciate your helping me!!", then he should have helped her.
Am haaretz back with his final comment.
Even am haaratzim like me have better things to do!
Bobover Dayan: There is no backtracking here. Read my comments, I never claimed picking her up would be yaarog al yaavor. Made it clear on a few occasions I wasn't saying that.
Again if you actually read what I was saying you would see that I said IT DOESN'T SAY Derech Eretz Kodma L'Halacha"
Shlomo I definitely applaud you for being the only level headed one here who hasn't insulted me!
Not sure falling over is necessarily enough kovod habrios, even if it is, the setting of a date where they are actively trying to start some sort of relationship could make something as "non-affectionate" as picking her up off the floor into something affectionate. It would be extremely difficult for it to remain 100% platonic. Therefore it might enter the category of D'oraysa.
I never said he should stand there and watch her in pain doing nothing. Obviously he should explain himself clearly, ask her how much pain she is actually in, assess how bad it is and ask her if it is ok if he runs to get someone else (a woman). Again back to the story, it is fair to assume a girl dating a guy from brisk wouldn't expect him to touch her in the first place!
9:00 Am
I see that like a spoiled child you must have the last word. But I will have none of that, because now you are not only a cruel am haaretz, you are also a bald faced liar.
In your very first comment you did say that it was "yeherag":
"It can be yaharog v'al yaavor to touch a girl if it will cause any hirhuruim"
Now this comment was your very first after DIN"s post about a guy on a date that refused to pick up his date from the sidewalk after she slipped, and was in pain and humiliated. You are in fact saying that picking up a girl that was in pain will cause him to have "Hirhurim" which is insane unless of course he is a sadistical sexual pervert. I know you will answer "I didn't say that"
The readers here are not fools or idiots so please stop with your twisted thumb turning crap. If you didn't mean to say that then your comment makes absolutely no sense.
But now in your last comment you are doubling down on that:
"even if it is, the setting of a date where they are actively trying to start some sort of relationship could make something as "non-affectionate" as picking her up off the floor into something affectionate. It would be extremely difficult for it to remain 100% platonic. Therefore it might enter the category of D'oraysa."
You have stated that this is a "possible D'oraysa" when every single person on this thread pointed out that you are wrong. You are assuming that all Bochrim on dates have " hirhurim" and that may or may not be true, since they very fact that he is on a date ever thinking person understands it is impossible for a normal 19 or 20 year-old with raging hormones not to have "hihurim" since he is on this date to see if he is sexually attracted to her. In fact that's why Chazal so wisely suggested that they marry at 18, because chazal understood that growing boys have "hirhurim" and so let's marry them off ASAP
So according to your crazed ideas about "hirhurim" and D'oraysas" no teenager or young adolescent should be out on a date.
Everyone already pointed out that being on a date, the boys naturally have "hirhurim" and not only are they not transgressing any D'orisays they are not transgressing any Biblical or Rabbinical transgressions.
You are hung up on that because of your own sexual hangups and you assume that every bochur picking up a girl from a sidewalk who is in pain and is humiliated, is so perverted that at this very moment in time, watching this girl in pain, he has "hirhurim". How sick?
Wake up and smell the coffee, I'l let you into a little secret, He had "hirhurim" throughout the entire date unless he doesn't like the way she looks.
Anonymous:
Letter says she was in pain and could not get up.
Because he'll have hirhurim (for argument's sake, let's say he certainly will), it would nevertheless be assur?
And this doesn't rise to godol kavid habrios, to not leave her lying there?
He has to "assess the situation, to see how much pain she's in"?
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