The Barak administration agreed to give up part of Israel’s sovereignty in the Old City of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount in December 2000, according to an official response to a Clinton administration proposal published for the first time by the Israel State Archives on Sunday.
Israel agreed to relinquish its sovereignty over the area of the mosques on the Temple Mount, Ynet reported.
Among the comments written in Hebrew in the margins of the Clinton administration proposal: “de facto division of sovereignty on the Temple Mount.”
Israel demanded continued sovereignty over the Western Wall, the Western Wall tunnel, the Makhkame building overlooking the Temple Mount, the Siloam Tunnel (aka Hezekiah’s Tunnel), the City of David and the Mount of Olives.
Israel expressed reservations regarding the U.S. suggestion to give the Old City’s Armenian Quarter to the Palestinian Authority, saying, “Armenians aren’t Arabs.”
Israel suggested instead that “everything from the Jaffa Gate straight and to the left [the Christian and Muslim quarters] will be Palestinian, and everything to the right [the Jewish and Armenian quarters] will be Israeli.”
Israel demanded to keep 80% of the Israeli residents of Judea and Samaria under Israeli sovereignty, which amounted to retaining only 8% of the area. It also agreed to retain no more than 2% of the Gaza Strip, Ynet reported.
Israel failed to receive a favorable response to a number of its requests, the document shows.
Israel expressed concerns that the “Palestinian recognition of the Jewish narrative regarding the Temple Mount was not accepted.”
Israel gave up its demand that Palestinian Authority sovereignty in Arab-majority neighborhoods would be limited to the neighborhoods adjacent to the Old City.
Its demand that Palestinian Authority sovereignty in the Jordan Valley be postponed until the end of the final-status negotiations was described as having “no chance” of being accepted.
Furthermore, Israel’s demand that an international force be deployed only along the Jordan Valley and the Gaza border with Egypt was not accepted. The U.S. proposal was that the force would also be deployed on the border between the Palestinian state and the State of Israel.
President Bill Clinton’s negotiators also didn’t accept Israel’s proposal that Hebron, Rachel’s Tomb outside Bethlehem, Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus and other holy places would remain under its sovereignty.
The document, an official Israeli response to Clinton’s ideas, is part of the archival file of the late Noah Kinarti, who was an adviser to the minister of defense for settlement matters and a member of Israel’s negotiating team.
The document includes an English language letter sent in January 2001 by Prime Minister Ehud Barak’s Chief of Staff Gilead Sher to Clinton’s National Security Adviser Sandy Berger.
In the letter, Sher said that Israel views the outlines as “a basis for discussion, provided that they remain, as they are, a basis for discussion acceptable to the Palestinians.
“Israel will request a number of clarifications concerning matters of vital interest to Israel,” Sher added.
52 comments:
DIN, this is old news, this has been known for years.
This treasonous Israel hating piece of human garbage, should have been hanging from the gallows years ago together with that other piece of excrement Ehud Olmert yemach shemo
yes it is very old news...it was published in the book "rise and kill first" by ronen bergman. the second intifada showed barak and the israeli left that it was useless to negotiate with arafat...they are motivated by hate, not logic...they could of had it all, but they just want to murder...r"l.
I don't think Barak was being treasonous. I think he was taking a gamble. He knew that nothing he offered Arafat would be accepted. He could've offered a 100% withdrawal from Yesha and even giving over the western Galil as per the 1947 partition plan and Arafit would've still said no. What he wanted was for Bill Clinton to finally look at Arafat and say "You're completely useless. The Jews are right. You're wrong. Come back when you're ready to be serious." By being this generous, he gambled that Arafat would say no and Clinton would publicly blame him for the failure of the talks.
I don't remember who, but didn't Rav Shach and other gedoilim approve of giving back entire old city including the koisel, in exchange for a reliable peace agreement?
Where's the picture of Ehud Barak, partially disguised, while he was sneaking into the mansion of menuvol Jeffrey Epstein (where countless meydelach were sexually assaulted)?
Garnel
If you were the leader of 6 million Jews would you "gamble" their lives away? This was the most sickest thing to do, and it didn't work as the USA and Clinton still respected Arafat, and urged restraint when the first intifada started immed after the signing!
Les Aym
Yes it was Rav Shach who approved giving back the entire old city and the Kosel; I doubt if Rav Shach would have given away Ponovitz Yeshiva,he was alway for "others" to give away.
Garnelh
Barak has subsequently said in interviews that is motives was NOT to gamble, and that he still has the opinion that Israel should return to the 67 borders.
Doubt away.Wrong.He would have given away that too for REAL peace.
He even mentioned sending the boys to North America (though he himself refused to ever leave Eretz Yisroel)
On the other hand he granted permission to Moshav Mattityahu to start in the West Bank -becausr it was close & in a bloc
Finally, his prescience regarding Gaza was uncanny.
> I don't remember who, but didn't Rav Shach and other gedoilim approve of giving back entire old city including the koisel, in exchange for a reliable peace agreement
Yes, their position was "You can give everything away except Bene Beraq"
12:47
For "real peace" what does that even mean? You mean to say that he agreed with Barak? We know he was for the failed Oslo to give it all back, except of course his own home.
"real Peace" turned into the 1st intifada !
When Yitzchak Hutner was asked to support this position, he refused, saying that, "agreement to other-than-biblical borders was tantamount to denial of the entire Torah"
You write that Rav Shach was willing to "sending the boys to North America," well that goes directly against the psak of the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, and most gedoilei hador of that time.
12:47
Rav Shach may have been a Huge Talmud Chacham but was politically naive and should have not made any comments as his comments meant absolutely nothing and was open to be ridiculed. "Real Peace" with Arafat? "Real Peace" with the PLO? Only someone totally divorced from reality would suggest something so outlandish. Begin actually did give back the Sinai because he knew he was dealing with a serious partner. He wanted to give back Gaza too, but Egypt didn't want it.
In retrospect we now see what "giving back" produced. Gaza already launched over 40,000 missiles against our neighboring children, and will probably have to be re-taken at enormous costs. Look what's happening in Chevron, it is the home of the worst of the worst. Sinai is now populated by ISIS and its a matter of time when this comes to bite us. Rav Shach had no clue to what he was talking about.
He stated that clearly.
Yes,dear parasite
Dear Useful Idiots ,
False .He despised Yossi Beilin & Peres.He was against Oslo because they were suspect.
And Because he felt only the Right can show the necessary deterrent strength for withdrawal for peace to ensue.
The present reality is precisely how he presumed that it should play out. Remarkable.
He was way ahead of all the others.
And he would state it was of more import to keep those in Tel Aviv Jewish than to keep Hevron (Lord Jakobowitz,a very different personality, had virtually identical views)
Had they heeded him there would have been less suffering along the way.
@ 4:51 pm - you are a koifer on Torah magnee umatzlee, and an ingrate since you benefit from it.
You are also a liar.
Rav Schach never said "give it all back". (He also did not posken as per Les Aym to give back the Kosel). He did write in the 1970s, see Michtavim Umaamarim 1:5, about giving back settlements (which was the daas of R' Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld & many other gedolim). Personally, I think Rav Schach would have sounded more like a Zionist hawk had he addressed this in the 1990s & on. The Arabs by then had radically transformed al pi the nevuah for ikvesa deMeshicha to become much more irrationally bloodthirsty to where there is seemingly no opening no appease them. Even "moderates" like Abbas openly speak of pushing all Jews into the sea. See R' Aron Dovid Goldberg of Telz's sefer on Yishmoel & the Brisker Rov's pirush on honeybees in Halel that foretold of swarms of suicide attackers.
"Sending the boys to America" is conflating with forced conscription which is the daas of most gedolim, including Chazon Ish, Steipler, etc. Even very nominally political figures like R' Yaakov Kaminetsky threatened to posken that if girls were targeted.
@ Dr. Phil,
Rav Schach was not naive whatsoever. He was working within the frame of not forcibly taking EY while in golus. 1970s Arafat had limited military capabilities compared to the Palestinians of today that giving them any foothold invites a barrage of rockets. If the Zionists listened to Rav Schach way back when & the Arabs would've still took advantage to launch attacks, Rav Schach would have agreed to take everything back from them for pikuach nefesh. Rav Schach told Tzahal's generals during Gulf War I, when they solicited his sage advice, that it is permitted al pi Hatorah to undertake some level of sakonna to IDF pilots if they can locate Scud launchers.
5:31
Please stop schooling me about Rav Shach, I lived in Bnei-Brak and knew him quite well, including his son, which is a whole different ball of wax.
Rav Shach may have despised Yossi Beilin & Peres, but he WAS FOR Oslo, he backtracked after the first Intifada.It was the Lubavitcher Rebbe who publicly stated that Israel has no right to give anything back to the goyi, and Rav Shach ridiculed him. As someone mentioned before so was Rav Hutner. He was not "way ahead of anyone" he was actually a political novice, and everything that he predicted DID NOT happen.
Your remark that Rav Shach " would state it was of more important to keep those in Tel Aviv Jewish than to keep Hevron" is not only childish but makes absolutely no sense. What does one have anything to do with the other? I highly doubt he ever said something so incoherent!
Gafni quoted him on occasion stating just that
It is the present Degel that are guilty of deemphasizing them both
And They still have alot to go tow with each other.cf.Lord Jakobowitz
Interestingly, an leader of old mafdal a decade ago conceded belatedly that the emphasis on the latter caused the denuding of Judaism of the former
5:44
You are right that Rav Schach never said "give it all back". He wouldn't give back his home or Ponovitz, everything else was on the table. he actually said "everything should be on the table."
You write:
"He did write in the 1970s, see Michtavim Umaamarim 1:5, about giving back settlements"
Giving back ANY settlements is suicide, let me give you just one example, Gush Etzion is 10 minutes from Beit Shemesh by car, if you give back the Gush,then Beit Shemesh would now be the border to a vicious Arab town, we have to bless the settlers for being brave to be on the front lines, Rav Shach was safely ensconced in Bnei Brak, but all of Israel cannot possibly live in Bnei Brak.
You state that the daas of R' Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld was to give back
back settlements? How crazy is that? I'll let you into a secret, Rav Sonnenfeld was niftar in 1932, 16 years before the State of Israel was established!
Your statement :
"See R' Aron Dovid Goldberg of Telz's sefer on Yishmoel & the Brisker Rov's pirush on honeybees in Halel that foretold of swarms of suicide attackers." makes Rav Shach's idea to put everything on the table which he said and repeated many times, hilarious.
You write:
"Sending the boys to America" is conflating with forced conscription which is the daas of most gedolim, including Chazon Ish, Steipler, etc.
Show me where the Chazon Ish and the Steipler suggested "sending the boys back to America" That is a blatant lie.
Rav Shach and more recently Rav Shteinman were all for the Army if the boys weren't learning boys! Rav Shach actually printed a Kol Korah on that, I sent a copy to DIN and there is a video of Rav Shteinman saying that, that's why thousands of Satmar Chassidim protested his visit in Monsey and called hima Sheigatz, and his matzivah was vandalized many times.
He predicted also in the early heady days of Lebanon caustically how that would go south (pun)
Re: reference
Jakobowitz warned a half century ago that the emphasis on West Bank settlements would empty the idealistic from the coast eventually to where it has indeed become-the secular medinat Hachof-but he was derided
5:53
Your comment:
"Rav Schach told Tzahal's generals during Gulf War I, when they solicited his sage advice, that it is permitted al pi Hatorah to undertake some level of sakonna to IDF pilots if they can locate Scud launchers."
This is preposterous!
The IDF generals were asking Rav Shach for advice? Are you insane?
And what is crazier is your comment:
that Rav Shach advised them that
"it is permitted al pi Hatorah to undertake some level of sakonna to IDF pilots if they can locate Scud launchers."
The IDF didn't need this advice as any 8 year old child knows that it is permitted "al pi Hatorah" to take risks for pikuach nefesh
For that they needed Rac Shach's advice?
You should be ashamed for reducing a huge Talmud Chucham to the level of a child..
The IDF asked him for advice during the gulf war..LOL Ha Ha
Crazy
11:22
You write
"Jakobowitz warned a half century ago that the emphasis on West Bank settlements would empty the idealistic from the coast eventually to where it has indeed become-the secular medinat Hachof-but he was derided"
Wow! "Jakobowitz warned!" Wow!!
HE WAS WRONG!!!!
The settlements, Maalei Adumim, Gush Etzion etc wher over a half million Jews live now is "bederech ha'teveh" our security. Can you imagine living in 67 borders? Can you imagine that.
Jakoboitz was a fool if he said that!
11:22
Every single thing that Rav Shach knew about Lebanon he read in the Jerusalem Post, Maariv or Haaretz as he said that he was not a "navie nor a son of a navie" so he got his information from the leftist media that predicted before Rav Shach's prediction that going into Lebanon was a bad idea. Lebanon was Sharon's baby!
As mentioned earlier, Rav Shach was for having everything on the table as he was very naive and trusted Arafat and the treacherous Arab murderers.
Hardly Amazing. How you quote so selectively.And with predictable indulging ignorance
Yes they asked him advice .That is normative for those on the inside
Iirc Rabin even asked him secretly way back on Entebbe .
[Interestingly,he told them under the conditions not to go. That was at the very beginning of his tenure.There is curve for leadership]
Oops.Too much inside Information.
That has been normative for those who are keen on what happens behind the closed doors.
Gedalye Esq is getting kind of wound up over my commentary.
Counsel, it is sad that you would mock Rav Schach ztl as chalila being so selfish as to only care about his personal abode. If you knew Maran as well as you claim you would know gantz gut that he was completely selfless, he wouldn't even let anyone do the most minor tasks for him. And I was personally told this by Rav Dovid Barkin that when Maran was no longer able to give shiurim he was full of agmus nefesh where will he move because he held he is now ganvening from Ponivizh. He only agreed to stay when a shaliach of Rav Elyashev insisted he is very valuable to the yeshiva just by his presence.
Rav Schach did not say to give all settlements or even most of them back. I am not privy to his exact formula but your argument that ANY settlement is too dangerous is a weak one. I do know that Rav Elyashev agreed on the need to get out of Yamit & Gush Katif.
I am aware of the timeline with Rav Sonnenfeld. I meant that he was bichlal very big into concessions to the Arabs of the time which would avadda include, anachronistically, settlements. The Arab sheikh who was the biggest sonei of Tzionim said he would be able to co-exist with them if they were like Rav Sonnenfeld.
Nothing is "hilarious" actually. Rav Schach was speaking before the nevuah of Arab uber-savagery was realized.
You are conflating about IDF. True the gedolim say that (male) batlonim anyway not learning or doing anything else productive should go to Tzahal. The gedolim will however say to flee to America should the Tzionim force the learners into Tzahal. A talmid of R' Aron Kotler told me about the Chazon Ish. Logic follows that his shvogger the Steipler agrees with him.
The Generals going to Rav Schach is not whatsoever "preposterous"! They recognized his chochmo so they were at the very least interested to hear him out. It was Maariv or some other Chiloni rag that reported they went to him at 3 am so as not to create a stir. There was a shayla of how much sakonna to engage in when the mobile Scud launchers might not even be located. To be more exact, he said that a small sakonna can be undertaken to remove a larger sakonna.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7250009/Netanyahu-challenger-Ehud-Barak-hides-face-enters-entering-Jeffrey-Epsteins-mansion.html
Chzak in Moroccan Jewish-Arabic is a fart
12:08
You write:
"Yes they asked him advice .That is normative for those on the inside
Iirc Rabin even asked him secretly way back on Entebbe .
[Interestingly, he told them under the conditions not to go. That was at the very beginning of his tenure.There is curve for leadership]"
I suggest that you should shut up already! All you are doing is digging a larger grave of your stupid childish remarks, I would never allow you to testify at a trial.
Rabin asked Rav Shach his opinion before they went into Entebbe and he said they shouldn't go in?
This is hilarious!
This was the most successful mission ever! Going into a hostile country dressed as Idi Amin and rescuing 102 of 106 hostages!
What other country ever did that?
Brisker 5:28
You write in reference to Rav Shach:
"Maran as well as you claim you would know gantz gut that he was completely selfless"
No one is arguing about that, what we are all saying that he was a naive political novice!
He was also a leftist and aligned with Leftist parties all the time.
You write:"
I do know that Rav Elyashev agreed on the need to get out of Yamit & Gush Katif."
So in retrospect how did that work out for the Jewish people?
40,000 missiles terrorizing the entire Israeli population all the time since we evacuated!
you write:
"The Arab sheikh who was the biggest sonei of Tzionim said he would be able to co-exist with them if they were like Rav Sonnenfeld."
Hey readers this "meshiginar" is talking about the Mufti of Yerushalayim
Haj Amin al-Husseini... such a radical antisemite he met with Hitler YM"S in November 1941, and in In the fall of 1943, SS Chief Heinrich Himmler heaped praise on him!
Yes I agree he loved Jews like the Hungarian Rabbi Zonninfeld, Jews that would never lift a gun and shoot him between his cursed eyes and put him out of his misery!
The Jewish boys learning in Chevron were probably NOT LIKE Rav Zonninfeld because the Mufti couldn't live with THEM as he massacred them in 1929, he had them murdered before first chopping off their limbs!
You write:
"There was a shayla of how much sakonna to engage in when the mobile Scud launchers might not even be located. To be more exact, he said that a small sakonna can be undertaken to remove a larger sakonna."
There was no "shayle" about the "sakonna" even a 6 year old in gan knew about the "sakonna" and could answer if the IDF should go into a "sakanna"
They didn't go after the scud launchers because of the first President Bush! He warned Israel against retaliating! Why would the generals of the IDF ask Rav Shach anything if they couldn't retaliate?
Rewriting history to fit into the Chareidie agenda doesn't change the facts!
Tying yourself in knots over your ignoramus exhibit.Fit for the chat group
After denying that they are asked ,you nitpick what you were handed.Most experts presumed Entebbe would fail.It was miraculous. And they wouldn't cease to come to him afterwards.You may never find out for what.
Par for the course
Oh ,And the early heady days of Lebanon,the atmosphere in Israel was that we were back to the spirit of '67. Check the old papers you Johnny come lately propaganda saturated fella.He was the uncanny outlier
QED
2:10
I am a former talmud of Rav Shach זצ"ל
IDF soldiers came to him for ברכות no one came for advice as he had really none to give as he wasn't privy to State Secrets!
As someone mentioned before, Rav Shach ז"ל aligned basically with the left because he felt that they would always be in power. He used to give Shiurim on Wednesday afternoons, and after a while it became totally political.
It should be noted that Rav Shach ז"ל did not get along with Harav Ovadia Yosef ז"ל, and after Rav Shach's bad mouthing of Harav Yosef ז"ל Rav Yosef started his own party Shas . He was vehemently against the Lubavitcher Rebbe ז"ל; the Gerer Rebbe famously walked out of a Moetzes Meeting when Rav Shach ז"ל spoke Loshon Hara against the Lubavitcher Rebbe, it was right after that incident that Rav Shch זצ"ל formed his own party Degel!
At the last Knessia Gedolah in 1980 when a message of congratulations was cabled and read, from the Lubavitcher Rebbe ז"ל Rav Shach ז"ל stormed out of the Knessiah! He also called for a complete boycott of Chabad, invalidating Chabad Shecitah, Gitten and kiddushin.
He mercilessly attacked Rav Soloveitchik stating that Rav Soloveitch was "Endangering the survival of Torah true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy"
saying "ein tocho k'boro, he is not a genuine person"
Rav Shach זצ"ל described Touro College as a terrible disaster, a "churban ha'das"
He accused Rav Steinsaltz of heresy and put him in Cherem!
He didn't spare his own blood as he didn't speak to his own son, Dr Ephraim Shach, who learned in Chevron in Yerushalyim, but was influenced not by his own father but by Jabotinsky and joined the Irgun. Dr Shach received a doctorate in history and philosophy from Dov Revel of Yeshiva University, he passed in 2011.
And the purpose of bringing all that up??
From your narrow Keren zavis you were unable to appreciate how important all that was at that crucial time. I personally know a Rav who was a former talmid of Ponovezh who was kicked out of the bungalow colony pool due to some of that back then
2:10
Just to add that as a Talmud, I know, that Rav Shach ז"ל was only for peace when it came to the blood thirsty Arabs, but to his fellow Jews he famously said
"There is no need to worry about machlokas, because if it done for the sake of Heaven, in the end it will endure ... one is OBLIGATED TO BE A BAAL MACHLOKAS.It is no feat to be in agreement with everybody."
It's time that people get to know the real truth!
And through all of he changed the face of North America & the world.For better.Which seemed to have left your little life of fun rendered inconvenient.Poor thing.
&He wouldn't insist everyone get involved- contra you- unless there was toeles
eg He told a Rabbi in Chicago that in his situation & locale he doesn't have to fight with chabad
Agree with Anon
Furthermore,he dropped his original plan to start Degel in America, due to being convinced for [drumroll] shalom
Not sure yet as to Gedalye Leibowitz's honesty but his retorts are nevertheless unfair.
Counsel, Rav Schach was not "naive", your smear of the gadol hador because he doesn't fit the Kahanist or Right Wing Modern Orthodox or Chabadsker mold notwithstanding. Nor was he a "Leftist". He made decisions from a Torah standpoint, not from political considerations.
For your moot point of 40,000 missiles (an undercount actually), you conveniently ignore the point I made earlier that you are buttonholing Rav Schach's pre-Nevuah 1970s deyos into contemporary realities that are overriden by pikuach nefesh that he's not here to posken on now. Moot because Hezbollah has over 100,000 they could chalila release at any moment that are more accurate than the heimish gebakken from Hamas. Iran itself has long range capabilities & are now working on submarines to get closer to Israel, vos der Aishbishter zolt hitten.
Before you smear me as nuts, please take a step back from putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about Arafat's Nazi grandfather yms. I didn't reference any "Mufti" religious figure. I said there was a "Sheikh".
Regarding the Generals, you may have an agenda to bash Charedim but it doesn't change the fact that Chiloni media reported their visit to Maran. If the Torah's answer is a poshut one then so be it. And pressure from George Herbert Walker is irrelevant when they were interested in hearing a Chochom's opinion, as much as you dislike it. This was not a retroactive fabrication as you imply. On the day that the Coalition attacked Saddam I was within earshot when R' Malkiel was being apprised of the earlier media reports. I also had the visit verified by one of the Ponivizher hoiz bochurim.
Batlan,
the Belzer agreed with sidelining Chabad. Old School Chabadskers hold Rav Schach actually did a favor by helping make the Meshichistim into outliers.
It's not as simple as you make it with Rav Ovadyah who was not very respectful.
Rabbi JB had Maskilish influences from his mother & his wife who wore pants. Even a Yekkish rosh yeshiva in Breuer's said he's nisht ken tzaddik just considering the poel yotzos from Modern Orthodox. And this was before it emerged that the vast majority of teens from MO families are mechalelei Shabbos. Even a Menahel of "flagship" Ramaz moaned in a newspaper interview that at least 95% of the student body has hashkofos that are kefirah mamash.
Ironic all this hock about Ponivitch. The alter Chaim Berliner magid shiur Rav Brog - who shtams fun Ponivitch of Lita - is cousin of Ehud Barak. Barak changed his name from Brog to Barak.
selective censorship ??
Congratulations din for getting 30 comments
3:56
1) in other words everybody that Rav Shach fought with was a "koifer"
Rabbi JB, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Shteinsaltz, Gerer Rebbe, Rav Ovadia Yosef etc etc Pretty distinguished list, I think a lot of people would rather be in Gehennim with the mentioned Rabbis, than in Gan Eden with a mean bitter litvak.
2) Some would argue that giving back land to Arabs is "kefira mamash"
3) you write:
"And this was before it emerged that the vast majority of teens from MO families are mechalelei Shabbos. "
You must be living under a rock because it seems that you don't know that Chassidishe and Litvishe Bochrum are going OTD rapidly by the tens of thousands!
3:43
1) you write:
"Nor was he a "Leftist". He made decisions from a Torah standpoint, not from political considerations."
I highly doubt that... you mean HIS Torah, as it wasn't the Torah of the vast amount of Gedoilei Yisrael who vehemently disagreed with him.
2)His decisions were all political as were his Wednesday afternoon shiurim which one great Gadol called "bittul Torah"
3) "Rav Schach's pre-Nevuah 1970s deyos into contemporary realities that are overriden by pikuach nefesh that he's not here to posken on now.
"pre-Nevuah?' Rav Shach was NOT a navie, pre or otherwise, and never claimed to be one.
No one needed his psak, and no one listened to his psak.. every child in gan knows that all mitzvois are "overriden by pikuach nefesh, no one needs a RY with pre nevuah or otherwise to pasken about pekkuach nefesh..
4) "And pressure from George Herbert Walker is irrelevant when they were interested in hearing a Chochom's opinion,"
It may be irrelevant for you but it wasn't for the government of Israel who couldn't do a damn thing after Bush threatened Israel if the defended themselves.
Again they went (if they did I'll take your word for it) then it was just for a bracha, no one would take his advice.
5)" the day that the Coalition attacked Saddam I was within earshot when R' Malkiel was being apprised of the earlier media reports. I also had the visit verified by one of the Ponivizher hoiz bochurim."
I hope you are not talking about the Malkiel, I know. Malkiel K isn't the sharpest blade in the drawer, enough said! Ve'hameivin Yavon!
Cognitive dissonance is how it's called .
Don't bother with this sort of bloke.
Isn't willing to deal with a world bigger than his whimsy preferences.
Let him remain in his teen echo chamber mediocrity ! The onus that he would have to up his religious ante is too much
While he went to visit him a long while ago they don't flaunt it. They rather keep it under the rug
Personally, would have utmost enthusiasm to be in Gan Eden with him!
More than any other name mentioned above
When Ehud Barak was confronted about his disguise to visit Epstein, he said "I wasn't disguising myself, I was cold".
It's clear now that the self-proclaimed lawyer is dishonest.
He keeps putting words in my mouth. It was a Menahel of Ramaz who said in a newspaper interview that at least 95% of the student body are apikorsim gemurim (to the point that it even irks a Lefty like him), yet Gedalye Esq turns around to falsely accuse ME of labeling as koifrim anyone from any group who are disliked by Rav Schach.
While Rav Schach spoke out fearlessly when needed, he had tremendous ahavas Yisroel which is distorted by Esq into "mean bitter litvak". Just who is the real meanie who spews forth bile & acid? Pashtus the Esq who wishes his own lot to be in Hell.
True there are Chassidishe bochurim being lost like displaced vasser, but Litvishe? The urchins by Lakewood's lake & late nights in Monsey's Brick Church cemetery are hardly "tens of thousands"
Esq conveniently ignores the VAST numbers of gedolim who did agree with Maran.
"All political" is another Esq smear of the gadol hador. Absolute motzee shem ra.
Esq hasn't been following my commentary closely enough so he misunderstood that I was somehow promoting Rav Schach to Novi status. The Nevuah is that of Chazal about the radicalization of the Arabs, which most of the Telzer rosh yeshiva Rav Goldberg's sefer is built around. And Esq is still harping that Rav Schach would give a poshut answer to anyone as if there is never sometimes a need for gedolim to give simple answers.
Only a fool or liar would insist like Esq that no one ever went to Maran for eitzos when droves of people did so from all walks of life.
"Nice" that Esq also launches into gratuitously belittling R' Malkiel
Brisker 4:35
Brisker is now using a tactic that professional liars use when they realize that they lost the argument, this is now referred to as "gaslighting'" What they do is say that we are using their "own words and putting them into their mouths" by saying this they are trying to sneak out of what anyone scrolling back the chat can clearly see is their words and in context.
First I would like to point out that no one is saying that Harav Shach z"l wasn't' a huge Talmud Chacham and a masmid. And no one is saying that people didn't go to him for blessings and advice!
What I clearly questioned was the "briskers" assertion that the IDF went to him for advice.
The "Brisker" is actually the one demeaning and making a mockery of Rav Shach when he says that the IDf went to him to ask whether they should save 106 Jews in Entebbe, and the "Brisker" then says that Harav Shach advised them NOT to do it. If he in fact told them that, then the "Brisker" himself would have to be the first one to say that this advice was completely wrong in retrospect, as this was the greatest accomplishment and achievement of any army in the entire world rescuing 103 Jews in a hostile country which is 4,603 km from Israel.Not to mention the huge Kiddush Hashem!
Part 2
Brisker
The "Brisker" also humiliates Harav Schach's intelligence and ours as well when he suggests that the IDF asked a "shaaleh" from Harav Schach on whether halachically they were allowed to take out the launching sites in Iraq when Saddam launched 39 scuds at Israel since it may involve "pekuach nefesh" . The fact is that every army and certainly the IDF is involved in actions that are "pekuach nefesh" every single day.To have an IDF general ask this of Harav Shach is preposterous and I suggested that even a 9-year-old in a gan would have no problem answering this question. To that he answered about the "pashtus" of Harav Shach? Is this "Brisker" insane? To add abit of logs to this fire, we all now know that Pres Bush warned Israel not to respond to the attacks, and the IDF knew that, why would they go to him and ask him a "shaaleh" for something that a child in a gan could answer, and that they couldn't even entertain that because of American pressure?
To answer the"brisker's" comment
"True there are Chassidishe bochurim being lost like displaced vasser, but Litvishe? The urchins by Lakewood's lake & late nights in Monsey's Brick Church cemetery are hardly "tens of thousands""
Monsey and Lakewood?" The Litvaks that are going off don't hang out in "cemeteries" they are far too sophisticated for that! Back in Europe the Litvak communities pre-WW2 were practically all assimilated as they joined the Haskala and the Yiddish Bunds, Communists and the Zionists. Chassidim were by in large not part of this.
Today the tens of thousands of Litvaks going off, unlike the Tuna Beigels, do not hang out together they are basically loners. For example Harav Shach's own son.
Part 3
To Brisker
Now Mr. Brisker I would like to ask you a question that is on everyone's mind.
Am I allowed to talk Loshon Hara on Torah leaders? Or, are only Torah leaders allowed to talk Loshon Hara on their own contemporaries? Are there two Toras? One for the layman like me and one for the Roshei Yeshivos?
Are we now allowed to talk Loshon Hara on Harav Ovadia Yosef? Are we allowed to talk Loshon Hara on Rav JB Soloveitchik? Are We allowed to
talk Loshon Hara on the Lubavitcher Rebbe who was a leader of tens of thousands?
Or is only Harav Shach allowed to do this?
As mentioned before and is public knowledge, that the Gerer Rebbe walked out on a Moetzis Gedoiei Ha'Torah meeting when Rav Shach spoke LoshonHara on the Lubavitcher Rebbe. At the time even Rav Shach knew that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was "still alive." This actually resulted in Rav Shach founding his own POLITICAL party called Degel. I remember myself when Rav Shach made a public display when he marched out of the Knessia Gedolah when they read a telegram from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, humiliating a leader of tens of thousands, he then walked back two minutes later when the reading ended! This was reported in the secular press!
What about when Rav Shach spoke behind Rav Ovadia Yosef's back and when Rav Ovadia got wind of that, founded his very own party called Shas?
So is that ok?
Your comment:
"The Nevuah is that of Chazal about the radicalization of the Arabs, which most of the Telzer rosh yeshiva Rav Goldberg's sefer is built around. "
You clearly (please scroll back to what you said) was hinting that Rav Shach himself was a Navie (gaslighting?)! But be that as it may, the now quoted comment is off the charts. We don't need Rav Goldberg's sefer about the "radicalization of the Arabs" one can see that in an open Baal Haturim, the last one in Parshas Chaya Sarah, one can also read that in Haaretz.
Sorry GL- who isn't able to manage a post without title self promotion,
Don't conflate him with myself.
No, You are gaslighting
As he never said those days,though they happen to be accurate.
Too difficult for ya obviously to keep both up in the air at once.
Go for it.Either be silent or just admit the supercilious ignorance of your crowd
Iirc Rabin was Defense minister during Entebbe.Hoped you were a tad aware of that .
Seems you are a clueless windbag .
Ehh, All your contentions were retorted previously-before you were even handed the info to use-which we allowed, because we are honest
Yet you attempt to keep after it to influence the simplistic third parties here!?
And after Entebbe, they kept coming to him [including when to meet Mr. Carter].They marveled how, even if/when they disagreed,accurate he generally was.
What was discussed we will find when Israel declassifies [Rare]
And some would have with others eg Ehud Barak having private discussion with R Nissim Karelitz
6:13
You write:
"And after Entebbe, they kept coming to him [including when to meet Mr. Carter].They marveled how, even if/when they disagreed,accurate he generally was."
'After Entebbe, they kept coming to him?" Who came to him? For what reason? Didn't you say he advised them not to do the operation in Uganda??
"They They marveled how, even if/when they disagreed,accurate he generally was.""
"They marveled?" Who marveled? For what did they marvel?" That he was wrong?
"he was accurate?" Didn't he say they shouldn't do the rescue of 103 Jews in Unganda?
"including when to meet Pres Carter" are you insane? You are a bono-fide meshiginer!
You wrote:
"some would have with others eg Ehud Barak having private discussion with R Nissim Karelitz"
Why would R' Nissim Karelitz have any discussions, private, or public, with the Jew traitor Ehud Barak? Ehud Barak offered Arafat ym"s 95% of Eretz Yisrael?
Again the IDF never sought advice from Rav Shach, who was actually wrong about the Entebbe raid, the Gaza evacuation, and the Gulf war and who basically hated brilliant Talmedei Chachum such as R' JBS, The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Shteinsaltz whom he put in Cheirim, and Rav Ovadia Yosef.
to all commentators
I am cutting off all further comments for this thread!
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