I don't quite know all the details of the minhag, but remember, the halachah was that you are not allowed to throw food IF it will get dirty, disgraced, etc.
I didn't see any videos of Rav Sholomo Zalman Auerbach, The Steipler, Rav Eliyashiv throwing food around ..they must have missed the "black on white" proof!
can u quote the Targum exactly, and exactly what were the Jews doing? and bobcat, can u back up your claim with evidence? which kehilles, when, where , why?
תרגום שני (ג, ח) ושדיין חיזורי תפוחים וז"ל הבאר היטב (או"ח סי' תרס"ט ס"ק ג') כתב מעדני יו"ט מצאתי על קלף שבחיי כ' למחות לזרוק פירות לנערים אבל יש במדרש שזה היה אומר המן למלך על היהודים אם כן מנהג קדמון הוא ואולי שראה הבחיי בימיו שנוהגין ריקות והוללות ע"כ
so it says that bacahye wrote to delete this words, plus it was Haman who said it and noody knows if it's true, even if it was, there's no way to know if the jews did the right thing. This is no solid proof of anything, not clear and contradictiary .
Anonymous 3:32, You're not translating correctly. Limchos means to protest. The Maadanay Yom Tov, who is the same as the Tosfos Yom Tov on mishnayos, writes that since it is a Chza"l, therefore it is clearly an ancient custom so it must be that The Bachyeh only protested because in his time he saw that people acted with depravety. Additionally The Be'er Haitev is himself an accepted source.
It's time to admit that you guys were wrong. It would be nice to see you all being modeh al ha'emess. It would make you more worthy of respect.
again, how come nobody threw for 3,000 years/ Wonder if Bal Shem, Kotzer, Berdichiver,Reb Meilich and other Chasidic rebbes threw, or is this recent, and why?
Anonymous, It's an old minhag. I showed you it even says in the be'er haitiv. If they didn't throw in the time of The Rabainu Bachyeh, then what was he being moche? So you see that this minhag was around in the times of the rishonim. Ask around you will hear that it was practiced in many kehilos.
7:26 This minhag was probably founded by a bunch of Amai Ratzim ...witness the fact that R' Bachyeh was opposed to it ... there are alot of minhagim that are crazy and outright meshugah ...and you will see many times that the Shulchan Aruch and nosei keilim say that these "minhagim" should stop .. The shulchan Aruch even says that the minhag of "Shluuging Kapparas" is "darkei amorie" .....I am not going into it ..and have no opinion ...but to bring down a Beer Heitev that says that there was such a minhag is asinine especially when he opposed it! Again ... a minhag that has a leader of thousands throwing apples on his chassidim should immediately be stopped because food should not be thrown around..period! What lesson does that give our children when they see agrown man with a shtreimel mit vaaseh shtrimp throwing apples??? hmm? Ita meshugah and should be stopped ...
The Be'er Haitiv didn't oppose it. On the contrary, he explained the Rabainu Bachye with an understanding that this minhag can't be opposed because it stems from Chaza"l. Maybe you think you know how to understand the Rabainu Bachye better than the Be'er Haitiv, but I'm afraid that argument won't carry much weight with most folks who will like contend that The Be'er Haitiv was the greater Torah scholar between the two of you.
8:18 שבחיי כ' למחות לזרוק פירות לנערים The Rabbeinu Bechayeh according to your quote was opposed to this sick minhag .. The Beer Heitiv who really also saw this as a sick demented minhag wanted to be a meilitz yoisher for those who wanted to continue this stupidity so he took a shoehorn to explain why the Rabbeinu Bechayeh opposed this mesheegas and wrote ואולי שראה הבחיי בימיו שנוהגין ריקות והוללות "perhaps the R' Bachayeh saw the apple throwers as a bunch of rowdy guys"and that's why he opposed this .. but notice the Beer Heitiv speculates ..he doesn'y know that for sure ...it could very well be even according to the Beer Heitiv that the R' Bachyeh was opposed to people throwing food!
Harry Now that I had the opportunity tho come home and see the באר היטב in context I see that I was 100% correct and Harry is trying to mislead The באר היטב is actually writing about crazy minhagim and cites a minhag where children would burn down the Sukkah on שמחת תורה and that there were reason to ״allow" this (on yom tov) he adds that his own father wouldn't allow him to burn down the sukkah when the באר היטב was a child He then cites what Harry the Talmud chochom quoted, that there was another minhag where people would throw fruit to youngsters and that the Rabbeinu Bechaya prohibited that He then, as I wrote before, shoehorned a reason why Rabbeinu Bechaya prohibited this Minhag ... since as he put it this throwing fruit minhag was a מנהג קדמון The fact is that even if it was a a מנהג קדמון means nothing .. there are hundreds of מנהגים קדמונים that the תנאים and אמוראים and ראשנים prohibited Having a grown man with a white beard in veiseh shtrimp thrown apples at other adults not Children as in the earlier minhag should be stopped and everyone that can should absultely mock this absurd and bizzare minhag that the Rabbeinu Bechayeh in Harry'a own words prohibited
I just want to correct that the באר היטיב actually writes that when he was a child he wanted to "take apart the Sukkah on Simchas Torah" not to burn it down though the minhag was that the children would burn them down on Yom Tov and he writes that there would "possibly even be a Heter"
30 comments:
No. In the Bais Hamikdosh they threw moneychangers. Oooops... wrong religion.
Strange custom, but I'm sure the apples were spared a better fate than those poor dead chickens.
In the Bais Hamikdosh they threw Esrogim at the Tziyio... oops I mean Tzidoikim!
Looks like both of them could throw a pretty good curve or fast ball
No, no. This is a Chassidishe custom. It is an honor for the Chassidim to touch the Rebbe's food.
Also, there are other things, I believe, behind it. Either way, it's nothing to criticize.
Kol Tuv!
Didn't they throw stones and yell... Shaaaabboooossss
All our lives we're told not to ever throw food, so what is this minhig.
A special a holy one...
mussaryid, what's holy about the prohibition of throwing food
I don't quite know all the details of the minhag, but remember, the halachah was that you are not allowed to throw food IF it will get dirty, disgraced, etc.
The source of this minhag is from Chaza"l. The targum on Megilas ester mentions it. Haman mocked it to Achashvairosh in his badmouthing the Jews.
This minhag is an ancient one and actually practised in a number of Ashkenaz kehilos prior to the war.
Do your research before you open your mouth
11:05
There is no minhag of throwing food ...period
in fact it is prohibited to throw food .. even if it doesn't "get dirty or disgraced" ....
DIN, I have given you a clear source black on white. You can't deny what we all plainly see with our own eyes.
video shows apples rolling on the floor and people crawling to pick them up, were the apples disgraced?
Is the targum saying Jews threw food, and why ? where does it say it?
If yes, then how come nobody threw food for 3,000 years?
I didn't see any videos of Rav Sholomo Zalman Auerbach, The Steipler, Rav Eliyashiv throwing food around ..they must have missed the "black on white" proof!
can u quote the Targum exactly, and exactly what were the Jews doing?
and bobcat, can u back up your claim with evidence? which kehilles, when, where , why?
תרגום שני (ג, ח) ושדיין חיזורי תפוחים
וז"ל הבאר היטב (או"ח סי' תרס"ט ס"ק ג') כתב מעדני יו"ט מצאתי על קלף שבחיי כ' למחות לזרוק פירות לנערים אבל יש במדרש שזה היה אומר המן למלך על היהודים אם כן מנהג קדמון הוא ואולי שראה הבחיי בימיו שנוהגין ריקות והוללות ע"כ
so it says that bacahye wrote to delete this words, plus it was Haman who said it and noody knows if it's true, even if it was, there's no way to know if the jews did the right thing. This is no solid proof of anything, not clear and contradictiary .
Anonymous 3:32, You're not translating correctly. Limchos means to protest. The Maadanay Yom Tov, who is the same as the Tosfos Yom Tov on mishnayos, writes that since it is a Chza"l, therefore it is clearly an ancient custom so it must be that The Bachyeh only protested because in his time he saw that people acted with depravety. Additionally The Be'er Haitev is himself an accepted source.
It's time to admit that you guys were wrong. It would be nice to see you all being modeh al ha'emess. It would make you more worthy of respect.
again, how come nobody threw for 3,000 years/ Wonder if Bal Shem, Kotzer, Berdichiver,Reb Meilich and other Chasidic rebbes threw, or is this recent, and why?
Anonymous, It's an old minhag. I showed you it even says in the be'er haitiv. If they didn't throw in the time of The Rabainu Bachyeh, then what was he being moche? So you see that this minhag was around in the times of the rishonim. Ask around you will hear that it was practiced in many kehilos.
7:26
This minhag was probably founded by a bunch of Amai Ratzim ...witness the fact that R' Bachyeh was opposed to it ...
there are alot of minhagim that are crazy and outright meshugah ...and you will see many times that the Shulchan Aruch and nosei keilim say that these "minhagim" should stop ..
The shulchan Aruch even says that the minhag of "Shluuging Kapparas" is "darkei amorie" .....I am not going into it ..and have no opinion ...but to bring down a Beer Heitev that says that there was such a minhag is asinine especially when he opposed it!
Again ... a minhag that has a leader of thousands throwing apples on his chassidim should immediately be stopped because food should not be thrown around..period!
What lesson does that give our children when they see agrown man with a shtreimel mit vaaseh shtrimp throwing apples??? hmm?
Ita meshugah and should be stopped ...
The Be'er Haitiv didn't oppose it. On the contrary, he explained the Rabainu Bachye with an understanding that this minhag can't be opposed because it stems from Chaza"l. Maybe you think you know how to understand the Rabainu Bachye better than the Be'er Haitiv, but I'm afraid that argument won't carry much weight with most folks who will like contend that The Be'er Haitiv was the greater Torah scholar between the two of you.
8:18
שבחיי כ' למחות לזרוק פירות לנערים
The Rabbeinu Bechayeh according to your quote was opposed to this sick minhag ..
The Beer Heitiv who really also saw this as a sick demented minhag wanted to be a meilitz yoisher for those who wanted to continue this stupidity so he took a shoehorn to explain why the Rabbeinu Bechayeh opposed this mesheegas and wrote
ואולי שראה הבחיי בימיו שנוהגין ריקות והוללות
"perhaps the R' Bachayeh saw the apple throwers as a bunch of rowdy guys"and that's why he opposed this ..
but notice the Beer Heitiv speculates ..he doesn'y know that for sure ...it could very well be even according to the Beer Heitiv that the R' Bachyeh was opposed to people throwing food!
DIN, with all due respect, You are speaking with conceit and anger. You know what they say. When your point is weak, you yell louder.
Harry
Now that I had the opportunity tho come home and see the באר היטב in context
I see that I was 100% correct and Harry is trying to mislead
The באר היטב is actually writing about crazy minhagim and cites a minhag where children would burn down the Sukkah on שמחת תורה and that there were reason to ״allow" this (on yom tov) he adds that his own father wouldn't allow him to burn down the sukkah when the באר היטב was a child
He then cites what Harry the Talmud chochom quoted, that there was another minhag where people would throw fruit to youngsters and that the Rabbeinu Bechaya prohibited that
He then, as I wrote before, shoehorned a reason why Rabbeinu Bechaya prohibited this Minhag ... since as he put it this throwing fruit minhag was a מנהג קדמון
The fact is that even if it was a a מנהג קדמון means nothing .. there are hundreds of מנהגים קדמונים that the תנאים and אמוראים and ראשנים prohibited
Having a grown man with a white beard in veiseh shtrimp thrown apples at other adults not Children as in the earlier minhag should be stopped and everyone that can should absultely mock this absurd and bizzare minhag that the Rabbeinu Bechayeh in Harry'a own words prohibited
I just want to correct that the באר היטיב actually writes that when he was a child he wanted to "take apart the Sukkah on Simchas Torah" not to burn it down though the minhag was that the children would burn them down on Yom Tov and he writes that there would "possibly even be a Heter"
DIN, stop with the mocking please....
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