Two nights ago, a student from a local yeshiva called our house; he asked for money so that the institution could meet its budget. After inquiring about the number of students learning in this yeshiva and how long it had been open, my wife Aliza asked how many of its students had joined the army since the yeshiva’s founding. “None!” he answered proudly.
In the course of explaining why he and the other students should not be drafted, he reasoned that because they learn for twelve hours a day, they are both working harder, and accomplishing more for the security of the country, than the soldiers who are on the front lines.
Aliza didn’t even bother telling him that our son Yaakov, who is serving in the north of Israel, routinely wakes up at 3 or 4 in the morning to begin his day. Given that context, her interlocutor’s boast about learning twelve hours a day is somewhat less impressive; while his claim that he is working harder than our soldiers, who risk life and limb alongside experiencing oppressive heat by day and the cold frost at night, with sleep escaping from their eyes (see Bereshit 31:40) is a perfect example of breathtaking ingratitude alongside ignorant self-congratulation.
(He also tried proving his point by asserting that most of Israel’s wars have begun during bein hazmanim, when the yeshivot are on vacation. One wonders how common this argument is, and - if it has become a real talking point - why almost every yeshiva in Israel will be on bein hazmanim for the next three weeks, rather than insisting that vacation be canceled and the regular yeshiva schedule be maintained. At the very least, if the students genuinely need a vacation and a given yeshiva’s administration authentically believes that study is an indispensable part of the war effort, they should stagger the time off so that the yeshiva is well-populated every day of the year. The fact that this solution is generally ignored can lead an honest person to wonder if the ultra-Orthodox population actually believes its own arguments.)
At least this student’s foolish and arrogant callousness is easy to dismiss. More troubling from an Orthodox perspective is the regular misuse of sources, and the repeated claim that they prove something different from what they actually say.
A typical example of this is the oft-cited Yerushalmi (Chagigah 1:7) which demonstrates that scholars are the true guardians of the city, and the local guards are, at best, secondary to the effort. The problem, of course, is that the Yerushalmi doesn’t say what people presume that it says.
Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai taught: If you see towns that were uprooted from their place in the Land of Israel, know that [the reason is that] they did not contribute to the salaries of teachers of Tanach and Mishnah. What is the textual source of this? [The verse says,] “Why is the land destroyed, torn down like a desert with no passers by? Hashem answered, because they abandoned My Torah.”
Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi sent Rabbi Chiya, Rabbi Asi, and Rabbi Ami to pass through the cities of the Land of Israel in order to establish teachers of Tanach and Mishnah for them. They entered one place and found neither teachers of Tanach nor teachers of Mishnah. They said to [the populace], Bring us the guards of the city, and they brought the watchmen [who stand by the gate]. [The rabbis] said to them, Are these actually the guards of the city?! These are nothing other than the destroyers of the city! So they asked them, Who, then, are the guards of the city? They answered, The teachers of Tanach and Mishnah. That is the meaning of the verse, “If Hashem does not build the house, its builders work for nothing; if Hashem does not guard the city, the guard watches for no reason.”
Only a wanton misreading of this source would indicate that students learning Torah in a Ramat Beit Shemesh yeshiva have any effect on the war effort. First of all, the Yerushalmi is discussing the failure of local communities to pay their teachers - and, according to commentators like the Korban HaEdah, specifically the teachers of children. The entire purpose of the rabbis’ visit to the local town was to encourage them to hire teachers, not to open another kollel or to convince the local populace to spend more time learning Torah. Moreover, the entire episode, along with Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai’s introductory statement, attempts to demonstrate that the presence (and paying) of teachers in a city serves to protect that city - not the Land of Israel in general, and certainly not the wider Jewish population across the globe. Finally, there is every reason to believe that this passage is aggadic rather than halachic in nature - that is, it is not part of the Talmud’s legal writings. Aggadata must be read with extreme care and should be taken very seriously; it should not, however, be used as the basis of legal argumentation.
In sum, the Yerushalmi is probably not meant to serve as a legal argument in the first place - but even if someone insists on understanding it as a practical halachic guide, it asserts that vulnerable cities can protect themselves by hiring and paying teachers who will teach in that same city. Accordingly, if we take the words of the Yerushalmi seriously, cities on the Lebanese and Gaza borders should quickly hire more teachers who will teach Torah to the local children, and the population of Torah observant Jews should eagerly volunteer their services in this regard. Needless to say, this has not happened; I have not heard anyone urging that we implement this Yerushalmi-based solution. Instead, we only hear the refrain that more Torah learning by more people is the answer to Israel’s security needs.
This Yerushalmi, of course, is only one of many texts that are cited (sometimes mistakenly so) to demonstrate that Torah learning, rather than military effort, is the primary way that Israel is protected from its enemies. Other texts may potentially show this more effectively than the Yerushalmi in Chagigah - but we rarely are proffered sophisticated analysis of these sources.
When talmidei chachamim are presented with a halachic question or problem, they typically respond by marshaling all the available halachic sources and then presenting a cogent and well-reasoned argument. To our real regret, not enough scholars have done this when it comes to defending the ultra-Orthodox exemption from the IDF. Rather than offering classic halachic reasoning, too many Chareidi leaders present platitudes and cliches, while citing sources in ways that would never pass muster in an honest halachic dialogue. Aggadata is presented as halacha, while context is frequently ignored.
If the Chareidi leadership wants Israel’s non-Chareidi Orthodox population to respect their anti-army attitude - never mind giving money to the yeshivot which encourage this behavior - they need to present reasoned halachic justifications, rather than pointing to random aggadic sources and insisting that the rest of us trust the Torah intuition of Chareidi gedolim.
Perhaps they have a convincing argument. Until they say what it is, the rest of us have every right to demand more - and to demand that they show some humility instead of proudly advertising that none of a yeshiva’s students had ever joined the IDF.
Wow! For a guy like Feminist Am Haaretz rabbi Scotty to keep demanding a little humility he's got a chip on his own shoulder the size of the Rock of Gibraltar! Is this one of his Pontifications that he presented to the Koifrim at the Limmud convention? Of course he's going to arrogantly deny any right to gedolim to posken when he constantly huffs that Daas Torah is "idolatry" kaviyochol. There is such a thing as poskening from Agaddata which gedolim know when to do since time immemorial, despite Scotty's ignorance or just plain denial thereof.
ReplyDeleteDIN really outdid himself with "mayseh rav" from the fringe. Scotty is a promoter of all kinds of not normative meshugassen like Bassar Basser type kashrus from the likes of profiteering shyster Zev Schwarcz & his IKC on any goy operating on Shabbos in non-Jewish neighborhoods. In 2022 he had Schwarcz ploppeling on his website using all kinds of sheker & lukshin to be "matzdik" all sorts of maacholim assurim that he takes money to certify.
Femineest
ReplyDeleteI don't know about anything else, but in this post, he is spot on. We do not pasken from an agaddeteh, as you can clearly see from the Shalosh Shevuois which is not mentioned in the entire Shulchan Aruch and the Mishna Torah of the Rambam! I can bring you countless examples, and the Shoel Umeishiv and the Noda Be'Yehuda say that emphatically!
Arrogant Scotty is "spot on" in the minds of those who want to abolish Daas Torah & belittle gedolei Torah as know-nothings or liars. I'm not bakant with the 2 teshuvos you cite and their context. From what I'm familiar with, even though other sifrei Chazal do not have the same kedusha & authority of Shas, we do often see gedolei haposkim poskening from them - including Medroshim like one episs about a bird and another about the Mitzri civil war on Shabbos Hagadol. Most often this is when they do not contradict Shas but sometimes even when in seeming contradiction to Shas. This includes the Zohar regarding tefillin on Chol Hamoed. Scotty is too overconfidant when outside his apikorsish confines of Maimonides Boston, Limmud, JOFA, etc
ReplyDeleteFemineest
ReplyDeleteI grew up in the 50,60 70, and 80 amongst Holocaust survivors and I learned in Chassidishe and Ober-lender Yeshivois, I never heard the term "Daas Torah" ..This was made up by the Litvishe Roshei Yeshivas so that people should conform with their stupid meshigina chumrois. and to force their radical ideas down our throats!
There is no such thing as "Daas Torah"
We don't have a Sanhedrin or a universal leader, everyone has their own rabbi or rav. Telling me that this or that is "Dass Torah" means absolutely nothing to me or even to my generation.
I remember when a Bobover Chusid was doing something and a Litvisheh guy was telling him that this is not "Daas Torah" so he innocently asked him "what is Daas Torah" so the litvach answered him R' Chaim Kanievski, so the Chusid asked him naively and who is R" Chaim? He really had no clue who R' Chaim was. No one in the Chassidishe or MO world gave two hoots what R' Chaim thought or said!
You say "gedoilei Torah" I ask by whose standards? Not by me or my entire generation! I have my Rav and Scott has his, he doesn't have to conform with your "Daas Torah" or with your "gedoilim"
All of us have our own, most of who you call "Gedoilim" I never heard of if I wasn't reading the Yated!
Again he was spot on! Kol Hakovod!
It's still hard not to smile when people refer to their greatest rabbis with the same term they use for feces, as it were.
DeleteOh please! Show me one Chassidishe or Oyberlandishe gadol who says bochurim areingetung in lernen should close their Gemara & go to Tzahal boot camp. You can't. So stop parrotting the alter shtussim that Litvaks are supposedly the only ones who subscribe to what Daas Torah is truly defined as.
ReplyDeleteFemineest
ReplyDeleteAll Chassidishe Yeshivos promote working, Satmar especially! Even in Israel, Belz, Stolin and Viznitz will now introduce secular studies so that their students can go to work and bring a parnassah! ALL and I repeat ALL oberlander graduates went to work, no one went to Kollel, no one!
Well as far as the army, that they don't want because they would rather someone else sacrifice their children to protect them!
Litvaks were always against work, I remember the Alteh Mirer and Bais Ha'Talmud guys that never got married because they refused to support a family, they were all buried in their Talis Katans! The entire Fakewood apparatus is built on schnorerei and that someone else support them! This is all collapsing as there are now 4 generations not working and it is unsustainable!
They are slowly waking up from this parasitical cesspool as many are leaving the fold, when I say many, I mean tens of thousands. At least the Chassidishe guys that go OTD still love the connection to their culture, but the Litvishje when they go OTD they are forever lost to Judaism unless they live in Israel, them at least they will marry someone Jewish! Again, they is no such thing as "Daas Torah" which was fabricated by the Kalteh Litvaks to try to convince the oilom goilim that their Torah is authentic! Which is hogwash!