DIN: Turns out that the Chareidie press is citing multiple sources and instances where gedoilei poskim have absolutely zero issues with women doing gelilah.
A reader "RCK" from Beitar Illit, sent me a PDF where one can clearly see that there is a Spinka Minhag to be "mechbeid" a lady with gelila! The previous Satmar Rebbe, the Beirach Moshe, wrote a Sefer Torah in honor of his late daughter, and instructed his chassidim to have a woman do gelila, and said that this was a minhag in Sighet, to give gelilah to women who have problems conceiving.
I believe that Rab Shternbuch wrote his psak too soon, without having the facts and having missed a Nitei Gavreal that permits it with conditions.
My issue is not that Rav Shternbuch prohibits this, but his tone, prohibiting it, stating that people "should distance themselves from people practicing this."
There were local rabbanim there who permitted it, and it was not Rav Shternbuch's place to rule against them.
In the wake of the incident in which a woman did Gelilah during the course of a Hachnasas Sefer Torah and the strong protest by Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch against the practise, historian and researcher Yisrael Shapira revealed a number of previous occasions in which such a custom was approved by prominent rabbis.
Shapia, who writes for the Kikar Hashabat site, revealed that nearly 200 years ago, when Moses Montifiore and his wife Judith visited Tzfat after the 1837 earthquake, Rabbi Avrohom Dov Avritch, the Bas Ayin gave Judith significant honor. On the eve of Shavuos they were invited to a Hachnasas Sefer and a special place was prepared for Judith, as she later wrote in her memoirs. (Otzar Masaos Eretz Yisrael p.558). During the Hachnasas Sefer, Judith was given the honor of standing right behind the Bas Ayin and carrying a wax torch, “And they brought me under the chupah behind the esteemed rabbi carrying the sefer and everyone was crowded behind us singing dancing and clapping.” She added “I was so happy and delighted to see this holy joy.”
Judith even revealed in her memoirs her concern that the torch “might ignite the chupah, or I might drip wax over the white silk clothes that the honorable R. Avraham Dov wore.” (She actually represented her husband at the occasion as he was sick at the time.)
A week later, the Montifiores travelled to Tiberias and davened shacharis with the Bas Ayin. Judith described the atmosphere at the Bas Ayin’s shul: “There was a large group of the wise men of the town. I was honored to decorate the Sefer Torah and all those who came to read blessed us and inquired of our welfare.” The Montifiores were even invited to have breakfast with the Bas Ayin.
During the previous week Judith reported a similar honor from “The Chacham Mizrachi”, who was the Sefardi rabbi in Tzfat. When the Montifiores visited his shul “Montifiore was given Hagbahah (raising the Torah scroll) and I was honored to decorate the Sefer.”
After this historical evidence, Shapira also brings a modern-day posek, Rabbi Gavriel Tzinner, who in his Nitei Gavriel cites halachic sources that women did perform Gelilah. For example, it was the custom in Zeewald, Holland that a girl from the women’s section did gelilah and this was approved by Rabbi Shmuel Hirsch.
Moreover Rabbi Tzinner quotes the grandson of the Berech Moshe of Satmar who said that when doing hachnasas sefer Torah a childless couple should be honored with the husband doing Hagbahah and the wife Gelilah as this could be a segulah (merit) for having children.
Moreover similar testimonies of women doing Gelilah were presented by members of the Spinka chasidim, as well as Rabbi Chaim Falagi in his Sefer Chaim, the Tiferes Aryeh and others.
The Nitei Gavriel concludes that women would be permitted to do Gelilah if they are 1) not Niddah 2) dressed modestly 3) doing it in front of close family and friends.
I would think the only real issue is how crowded the bimah is to avoid direct contact between men and then woman.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that the NG's 3 conditions are also problematic. For example, on Wednesday you arrange for a childless woman to do gelilah on Shabbos but on Friday she gets her period. Cancellining her at the last minute might be very embarrassing.
The other issues is that Modern Chareidism(tm) is a reactive religion - lots of what it declares to be "normative" is decided by what outsiders do. Does that shul allow women to do gelilah? We'll forbid it!
Come on DIN! It's laughable that you of all people brengt Satmar as a raaya, hardy har har!
ReplyDeleteRabbi Gavriel "Sinner", despite his whole 9 yards levish, has been previously blasted for feminist meshugassen infecting his psak halacha, even reaching to Philly style mamzerus. As far as Gelilah, it seems the contemporary examples are more of a public show that even he will not allow.
How many Yidden lived in Zeewolde, Holland? What machaneh was that Ruv in?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeewolde
The town was not even founded until 1984! The area was underwater & not reclaimed as land until 1979.
Spink is not exactly a mayseh rav for the rest of Klal Yisruel. And minhag Sefardim veizt nisht der veg far inzerreh Ashkenazishe.
The Tzfasishe mayseh may have been hoiruas shuah tze mechabed zein a yochid vee Montefiore.
Ok guys...this is absolutely nuts.. crazy!!
ReplyDeleteA lady had a sefer torah written in honor of her late parents. She probably spent with all the festivities, close to $50,000. Her husband gave her a token honor of giving her gelila. There were local rabbanim present, no one challenged it!
All agree that gelila by a lady is not prohibited and it is not brought down that it is prohibited in the entire Shulchan Aruch.
This "gelilah" did not and will not in the future cause any "bizayin" Ha'Torah, it will not lead to anyone going off the derech! It will not lead to a "yerida" or erosion of the Torah. "le'hepach" it will bring women closer to the Torah!
Yet a world renowned posek took precious time to write a letter publicly condemning, what was to her, a beautiful and meaningful act expressing her love of the Torah.
Not only did he condemn this but added that one should "distance themselves" from these people!
This is absolutely insane!
Absolutely nuts is an absolute understatement. A renowned posek? Who conferred that distinguished identifier on a guy who misallocates contrived halachic prohibitions on women only because they’re women! Chareidism is dragging Yiddishkeit into an unholy abyss and the consequences will be the same misogynist craziness that manifests itself in Afghanistan.
Delete
DeleteYes, we have a destiny.Sublime.
Try a different denomination. Or religion if that suits.
Don't get hit by the door on the way out
"All agree" . really??
DeleteName a single consequential authority
G. Zinner is very connected to Chabad.
ReplyDeleteFor a women to perform is a poretz geder & a bizayon.Unless you're a cherrypicking open reformdox
ReplyDeleteThis A joke ?
All of a sudden you have become a groupie?
Since when are chassidim considered legitimate ?
They bend whichever way till headwinds blow the other way
All your proofs are from chassidim?
Yea!Just get rid of the mechitza altogether already.
ReplyDelete"It isn't brought down as forbidden " ehhh Because it was so obvious
ReplyDeleteWomen weren't supposed to be there to begin with
DIN, I'm surprised that you don't have more respect for Rav Shternbuch shlita. Besides that he knows more Torah than all of us put together & may very well be on to something that eluded us, he has taken courageous positions that you admire. He has stood up time & again to the Sikrik & Satmar crazies, often at risk to his own safety.
ReplyDeleteThere are many things that are not lehedya in Shulchan Aruch that we know are assur, including types of geneivos. The heterim first reported by offbeat Satmar site VIN are from a journalist. We don't know the full context al regel achas & they are unclear for more reasons than raised by Marmorosher Ferd.
4:39
ReplyDeleteFirst you scribble with arrogance and "gaaveh"
"For a women to perform is a poretz geder & a bizayon.Unless you're a cherrypicking open reformdox"
Then one line later you scribble:
"Since when are chassidim considered legitimate ?"
The Divrei Chayim, The Chiddushei Harim, The Sfas Emes, The Baal HaTanye,
The Kedushas Levi, The Bnei Yissacher ,,, were all "illegitimate?"
Only the ones with a cross in place of their hearts are "legitimate?"
Again, I stand by my comments:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a lady doing gelilah, period.
There were local rabbanim there and didn't challenge it, Rav Shternbuch, with all due respect for him, should stay out of local psakim.
&5% of his own Eida Hachreidis don't consider him as legitimate.
Were any of those former list of names mentioned as a source
DeleteFurther,since when would the likes of you of all people suddenly rely on them?Unless you cherrypick to suit ?
Finally,just because somebody has the title Rabbi doesn't suppose he is competent on anything above his little niche.Disagree?
% of his own Eida Hachreidis don't consider him as legitimate
ReplyDeleteThat's because as you know very well the Edah has been hijacked by a bunch of fanatical savages which even Zalmi Teitelbaum thinks they are overboard.