By "normal" people, this innocent loving gesture by the Kallah isn't anything to talk about ...but by Chassidim this is a very daring move .....
Kol Hakovod!
BUT and this is a big But ... I have another video of this kalleh dancing in a circle with only men holding hands with another man ...it could be her brothers!
But as soon as I manage to download you will see it!
מצווה טאנץ של מי?
ReplyDeleteאולם שמחות במונסי ...
כל הכבוד
אחותי
רעיתי
יונתי
תמתי
אבל לא תמותי ...
Commendable that no one intervened ... The show must go on & the crowd enjoyed it ...
ReplyDeleteThis is a Chasidishe Simcha Hall in Monsey NY ...
https://jailalert.com/arrest-records/ariella-feldman-5281502.html
ReplyDeleteMonsey girl arrested for grand larceny via credit card.
She is not really frum but does have a shidduch profile on Shabbat.com
Actually this is not racy or daring but is actually beautiful,heck they are married why shouldn't they have this dance.
ReplyDeleteBut you know what is disgusting and racy and actually borders on GILUY ARAYES, it is the disgusting so called Mitvah tanz performed by strangers including all the so called Rebbelech.
How the hell could anyone justify this PERVERSION ? here we have this woman just married a few hours ago, hey she just became an EISHES ISH how dare a strange guy dance with her even if it's with a GARTEL ?.
What is especially disgusting and should be legally abolished and outlawed is the mitzvah tanz at the Rebbishe
weddings where the poor 17 year old girl is forced to be the center of attention where thousands of chasidishe barbarians have their eyes focused on her and watch their crazed rebbelle performing his idiotic dance,if this isn't child abuse- i don't know what is.
this disgusting perverted and against HALACHA minhag,was most probably started 150 years ago by some Hungarian and Romanian hasidic ignorant barbarians and somehow with passing of time it has evolved into a holy minhag yisroel.
what a sick joke this is.
CHAIM
Kol Hakovod?
ReplyDeleteHave you lost your senses?
This is chassidish?
They are very sweet.
ReplyDeleteit's 2016
ReplyDeletewhy leave anything to the imagination
bring in Howard Cosell and Wild World of Sports
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK9y_sY4dKg
Please no videos of Marv Albert
ReplyDeleteIt's probably her father NOT the chasan.....,
ReplyDeleteכיצד מרקדין לפני הכלה ולא עם הכלה ...!!!
ReplyDeleteI think it is awesome. What is dusgusting is someone videoing this and pubilizing a private special moment between husband and wife.
ReplyDeleteמפרסמים עושי מצווה ...
ReplyDeleteIf you can do mixed dancing and call it "holy, holy, holy", you can also do hugging and call it "holy, holy, holy". The Talmud says they danced for the kalla in order to endear her to her husband, but it never said that the chossen danced with the kalla in order to endear her to everyone else. Some good for nothing invented this. And what about all the boys staring at the girls with all the makeup during the whole mitzva tantz?
ReplyDeletedisgusting!
ReplyDelete@11:16
ReplyDeleteStaring at the girls with makeup is a mitzvah! This can alleviate the shidduch crises. In the days of old, we had Tu' Bav. A Michitzah is only to separate the genders from dancing together, but has nothing to do with looking how one dances.
Rashi says in the end of "ben soreh umoreh" that if hangouts would lead to marriage it would be a mitzva, not an avayra. The problem is that people who hang out are usually not interested in marriage. They just wanna have fun. But if you see a girl and you wanna go out with her, kol hakovod! Do you know any shidduch that started from a mitzva tantz?
ReplyDeleteIt's crazy how some frum see girls in makeup and who stares at them, know if shiduches were made at mitzvah tanzes and know for sure that a chassan dances with his kallah for the crazy reason to endear her to others. Chazal danced in front of a kallah to make her happy as the mitvah says, not to endear her to her chassan. Every chassan is crazy about his kallah at wedding night.You say, Good for nothing invented these but you don't write that good for nothings invented badchanim to squeeze more money from parents,and that doean't bother you
ReplyDeleteChill out and learn ksubos 17
ReplyDeleteThe point isn't if this is right or wrong: The point is that everyone ELSE was separated attending this wedding, separate seating, separate entrances, separate dancing, separate meals, so why is it okay for them??? WHY do they break their own rules?
ReplyDeleteYou're lying about ksubos 17. It doesn't talk about the wedding night at all, only that people are allowed to gaze at her the entire seven days after the wedding to make her belved to her husband. At the wedding night, chazal danced and praised the kallah. So you chill out and don't obsess with makeup and women.
ReplyDeleteI looked at ksuvos 17. First of all, the 7 days also includes the wedding night. #2) the halacha is actually that it's forbidden to look at the kallas face even for one minute (see rosh). #3) if you only dance for the kalla to make her happy, why can't the women dance for her? Why do you need the men? #4) Why does the Talmud say that just like when your friend buys a new car you don't tell him it's ugly, but you tell him it's nice, the same thing when he gets a new wife you tell him she's pretty (while you dance). But if you only dance to make her happy, why don't you just shut up! so you see the main reason is to endear her to her husband.
ReplyDeleteI was once by a mitzva tantz and when the choson danced with the kalla the brother of the choson (very frum guy) and the bobover dayin (chayim yankel tober) both turned their heads to the back wall. So I told the guy "if you turn your head to the wall then everyone should do that, so why don't they just go home and dance?" so he answerd me "blah, blah, blah".
ReplyDelete@3:33'
ReplyDeleteUntil the 1960's every religious wedding was mixed seating with the greatest rabonim sitting mixed with women. Only dancing was separate.
So how come you know all the halachas and gemorrahs, and these honorable rabonim who had yiras Shomayim didn't know your Chazals with the Rosh?
Everybody looked at everybody without a problem, both in America and old shtetl Europe. Look at old photos if you don't believe. That's if you can find any because the Chareidi publishing houses are photoshopping all old photos with women. They're shameless liars and revisers of the worst kind. So kesubos 17 doesn't include the first night, this is your interpretation and as for your #3, who says women don't dance? Of course they dance, the chidush is that men also dance. Your #4 doesn't add logic, because no chasan needs anybody to tell him he got a pretty wife.He knows what she is and marries her anyway
The Chazal say the girls spoke and sang to the young men on Yom Kipper and the pretty ones told them to look at them. The poor girls said look at our inside rather the outside. You can bring any posek or meforshim you want, but can't argue with this gemarrah, nor with the hundreds of rabbis who sat mixed, had conversations and respectfully looked women in the eye.
Explain how you can tell the Chassan that his bride is pretty if you can't look at her, and how the Chazzal write that you should say kallah Noeh in front of her without looking and knowing what she looks like.
ReplyDeleteYou bring down a Rosh, so the question is did you yourself ever in your life ever violate this Rosh, and be honest. If you did, then why are you preaching to others?
ReplyDeleteSince you're so stupid let me explain #3 again. Why do you need men to dance in front of her to make her happy if you already have women dancing in front of her? Is she more happy if a man dances in front of her? And as far as mixed seating in the early days after the war, this is a separate issue, and it was not ideal. In those days you were happy just to see a frum jew. Even Achashvayrosh and Vashti did not have mixed seating. In other words, even though they both wanted the men and women to play around, the most they did was was to make the party in one palace as opposed to the women eating in the ladies palace, but to eat together in one room? No way! See Megilla 12-13?
ReplyDeleteYou didn't answer any of my proofs from chazal and conveniently ignore them. You need men to dance because it's a mitzvah to be mesameach the couple, that's why, you don't need to be stupid to understand that, and your answer about mixed seating is pathetic weak.The Achashverosh proof is the weakest. These very frum weren't supposed to be there in the first place. Enjoying a party thrown by Achashverosh to celebrate the non building of the bet Hamikdash, but of course no mixed seating. How many hechshers did they have? There's n opinion that the food wasn't even kosher. They fasted for 3 days to cleanse their multi aveiros, but they were particular about mixed seating. Ok I get it. So do you obey the Rosh?
ReplyDelete@9;26, Rav Moshe the posek hador sat at mixed seating, as did other rabonim , and certainly at dinners. There was also mixed seating in Europe at all simchas. The biggest negative in our day is the attempts to revise and falsify Orthodox history.
ReplyDeleteEmes Ve-Emunah
ReplyDeleteThursday, February 23, 2006
There is a story about Chafetz Chaim and Rav Meir Shapiro coming to him for Shabbos. He asked that there be separate seating. It is an absolute true story that before he comes to Radin, he tells the Chafetz Chaim I am going to be in Radin for Shabbos, I would like to be at your table. The Chafetz Chaim says, "with pleasure." The Maharam Shapiro knew that the Chafetz Chaim was a Litvak, i.e., men and women eat together. Maharam Shapiro asks the Chafetz Chaim to separate, that is, to put his wife at a different table. The Chafetz Chaim answers that if that is the case you can't be my guest.
I can never forget in my time, in Y.U. circles I never heard of separate seating, until I left America. It wasn't shayach, not just [in] Y.U. [circles], [but also] in the Litvishe circles. Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Yaakov Kamenitzky, the Rav, how many weddings [did they attend] with absolute mixed seating. There was separate dancing, but mixed seating. It was normal. It was par for the course. For their own children, (I was at the weddings), there was mixed seating. There was no question about it. Each one's kavod was with his rebbitzen. [They were proud to say], "This is my rebbitzen." These were their joy.
megillatesther.wordpress.com/
ReplyDeleteAlthough it would ordinarily seem that a women-only party would be more conducive to certain standards of modesty, Talmud on the bottom of Megillah 12a makes clear that Vashti wanted to tempt the men to sin just as her husband intended (as mentioned in a previous post). As the Maharsha points out in his commentary to the Talmud, had Vashti wanted real privacy in accordance with moral standards of the day, she would have held her party in the women’s palace. However, Vashti’s party was neighboring the men’s party.
I don't know what you want from the Rosh. All the poskim hold like the Rosh. You want to know if I try to keep the halacha? Are you taking a poll? Did you take your pills today? And as far as the question "how can you know if the girl is pretty if you can't look at her", the Aruch Hashulchon basically says that the main problem is to "stare" at her, which the Talmud calls "histaklus", but to see her here and there is normal. The only problem is that if this is the case why does the Rosh have a problem with "henuma"? Just say he didn't "stare" but he just happened to see her? Let's go on. "Yes", you're supposed to make happy the choson "and" the kalla, but this is exactly how you make the choson happy, by telling him that he got a great girl, and this will endear her to him. So it's not just about making "her" happy- it's also about making "him" happy. But why on earth is the choson dancing with the kalla in front of people? Maybe you should kiss also and call it "holy, holy, holy".
ReplyDeleteListen guys
ReplyDeleteThe facts are that Gedoilie Yisroel sat with their wives at dinners and weddings ... you can write as many Artscrolls as you want, but the facts are facts and are very stubborn!
The Lakewood dinner was mixed until the 90's and so was the Agudah Dinner!
The only places in Europe that were separate were in Romania, because the Chassidim had their wives shave their heads and so they didn't want to sit next to baldie women .... but baldie men were all right!
But The Satmar Rebbettizen ignored those stupid rules and sat write next to her husband on many occasions ....she even spoke at his levayeh in Monroe!
The Satmar cowards that are bullies everywhere turned to butter when they had to deal with her!
P.S. See Kiddushin 81a that they had separate seating for men and woman for the speeches and for chuppa etc. (See Rashi "gulfi") That they made a "rattle" mechitza so that if one sex went to the other to flirt around and sin, the stuff would rattle. And these speeches during the fat lazy holidays was the number one headache of Yechud and sexual problems for the entire year. And that's why we fast Bahab after passover and sukkos. (Tosfos ibid) Reb Moshe never brought proof from korbon peasach that you can have mixed seating. He only brought proof that in such a setting you don't need a mechitza, but nobody ever said there wasn't separate tables. (O.CH. 1, 41) Reb Moshe called mixed seating "a burning fire in flax" (Sota 48a) (ibid 44). The Talmud criticized Vashti for making the woman's party in the kings palace (as opposed to the queens palace) In order to have lewdness. And after all this the women still had their own separate party. Which means that they were not eating in the same room as Achashvayrosh and the men. Otherwise it would only be one big party, and Achashvayrosh would not have had to call Vashti to show her off to the men. So you see that mixed seating was unheard of. I think mixed seating came along with feminism, and there was no feminism in those days. (Click Oct 18)
ReplyDelete(from my blog, kooloytoyra)
11:20
ReplyDeleteYou can bring all the Rashis' and Vashtis' you want...
but anyone over 50 remembers very clearly that all dinners and simchas had mixed sitting....yes at the Chupah they were separate for some reason ...but for the wedding it was mixed...
Just last year I was at a wedding at the Atrium and Harav Shmuel Kaminetzky was sitting with Rebbitzen at a mixed table!
Achashveirash and Vashti and the Nazis were makpid to have every one separate but by Yiddishe Simchas they were mixed ....
Like I said before- the mixed seating was not ideal. And even if yesterday they sat doesn't mean today you should sit. The Talmud in shabbos 80 is talking about carrying enough makeup for one eye, and the Talmud asks "who uses makeup just for one eye?" and the Talmud says- "the girls in the big cities needed a lot of tznius, so they covered one eye, while the country girls did not have to cover anything. Today we need a lot of tznius, and if you had mixed seating you couldn't find a virgin anywhere.
ReplyDelete12:56
ReplyDeleteYou chose Gemarras that fit your agenda, and I can quote gemarras that fit my agenda for example, the gemarrah writes about the girls that would dress in white on Tu Be'Ov to attract the boys ....
In the Bais Hamikdash ...the Kohein Gadol walked thru the Ezras Nashim ...and in fact men and women mixed in the Bais Hamikdash all the time...the Gemarrah in Succos says that on Yom Tov Succos, they would build a platform for women because the crowds were so huge they wanted to keep them apart at least for yom tov .....
I can go on and on ...
the facts are that Gedoilei Yisroel sat with their wives at dinners on wddings etc ...
this complete separation is breeding homosexuality and increases Sexual abuse in the frum communities ...anyone who dormed as a bochur has hundreds of stories about the "homos" etc ... the mixvas are infested with guys looking for a quickie ...
this is all from this crazy fake frumkeit ....
for every Rosh and Gemarrah I'll show you other Rishonim totally refuting your Gemarras ....
Talking about the Rosh ... his son the TUR paskins L'ehalacha that a Jew should trim his beard on Rosh hashana ...its the very first halacha...
so why do you have guys walking around that look like Charles Manson?
@12;56, The Talmud also discusses the case of Rav Sheishes's wife wearing makeup on Shabbos. Presumably, on both eyes and face.
ReplyDeleteI don't think sitting with girls would solve the gay problem. I hung out a lot in Deal where the sexes are not separated, and you still have boys coming out and saying that they're gay. I wanted to scream at a guy, "don't do that!" (Come out). There is no such thing in the Torah as an official gay person, just like there is no such thing as an official adulterer. You just have to fight your lusts.
ReplyDeleteEmes Ve-Emunah Monday, February 27, 2006
ReplyDeleteMixed Seating at Weddings, Part Two
A perfectly legitimate and beneficial approach to enjoying a Simcha has been cast by the Charedi world into something Krum at best and Assur at worst. Mixed seating at weddings in Europe and even here in the US (until the Chasidim and Hungarians came over post WWII) was common, attended by Gedolei Yisroel who even had mixed seating at their own children’s Chasunos. I am old enough to remember attending Yeshivishe weddings that were mixed back in the sixties. Only a few tables were separate for those mostly Chasidic Rabbanim who preferred it.
SBA points to the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch who Paskins that mixed weddings are Assur. The Kitzur is not my Posek, nor is the Kitzur accepted as Halacha Basra (final authority) of the Lithuanian world. My Posek was Rav Aaron Soloveichik, ZTL. The Yeshiva world would have done well to follow the Mesorah of their forefathers and Gedolei Yisroel of Pre WWII Europe who were clearly not Makpid on sitting mixed at a wedding... instead of chasing the Chumros of Chasidim. So now the "norm" is separate seating and this makes it mandatory? We should not deviate? Why?
When a new “norm” causes harm to Klal Yisroel as Rabbi Rakeffet points out, it needs to change and revert to the Mesorah of the last generation. This is the situation here. If SBA does not wish to sit with his wife, he doesn’t have to. No one is forcing him. If he is invited to a mixed wedding and makes it known to the hosts that he prefers to not sit with his wife, he can be easily accommodated as has always been the case. Just don’t force the rest of Klal Yisroel through group or peer pressure into separating from their wives when Halacha does not demand it.
By chasing Chumros and then claiming it is now the norm which by implication means mixed seating is either Krum or Assur you are in essence forcing, by way of community pressure the vast majority of the Frum world who do not enjoy separate seating into doing so. In my view it is near criminal to prevent quality time with one’s spouse when there is no clear Halachic reason to do so while there is ample precedent to allow it. And it may be even more criminal to prevent potential Shiddach opportunities in this way, especially in light of the current Shiddach crisis in the Yeshiva world. To claim, as does SBA that it is worse in the MO world does not solve anything.
From all your sources, you failed to prove that mixed seating is against halacha. And it's already evident that Vashti called for separate seating , not the Jews themselves. This should be the end of the story.because a chumra is not halacha.
ReplyDeleteI proved that mixed seating is against halacha from the "rattle" mechitzas even by a chupa, and my father said the same thing. So I asked my father, "what about the "gedolim" sitting at mixed weddings? So he said "I don't know what to tell you".
ReplyDeleteYou should all be ashamed of yourselves ......They were engaged 2 YEARS ago when girl was diagnosed with cancer and the Chossen's family begged him to brake it off and he wouldn't and stuck with her through her sickness and you are watching the mitzvah Tanti of a thankful woman to a Tzedek of a man who will iy"h see wonderful generations of incredible jews just like him and will rachmonim benai rachmonim just like him
ReplyDeleteThe mitzvah tantz (mitzvah-dance) is the Hasidic custom of the men dancing with the bride on her wedding night, after the wedding feast. The bride stands perfectly still, holding one end of a long sash while rabbis, the groom’s father, her own father or her grandfather holds the other end and dances with her.
ReplyDeleteThe source of the custom is in the Gemorah Ketubot (16b-17a):
They said of R. Judah b. Ila’i that he used to take a myrtle twig and dance before the bride and say: “Beautiful and graceful bride.” R. Shmuel the son of R. Isaac danced with three twigs. R. Zera said: The old man is putting us to shame. When he died, a pillar of fire came between him (R. Judah b. Ila’i) and the rest of the world. And there is a tradition that a pillar of fire has made such a separation only for one in a generation or for two in a generation. R. Zera said: His twig benefited the old man, and other said: His habit benefited the old man, and some say: his folly benefited] the old man (the gemorah is playing on the words for twig, foolishness and method). R. Aha took her (the bride) on his shoulder and danced with her. The Rabbis said to him: May we also do it? He said to them: If she is on you like a beam (meaning you are not enticed by her), then it is all right, but if not, you shouldn’t.
During the mitzvah tantz, the bride and her relatives are brought into the men’s section without a mechitza separation. In fact, often the mechitza is removed altogether, and all the women present share the same space with the men on the other side.
Some Orthodox groups are uncomfortable with this custom.
That’s OK.
Yori Yanover