The Jerusalem-based Kedem Auction House has put up for sale an original typed protocol of two meetings between the Council of Torah Sages and Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion and President Yitzchak Ben-Zvi, respectively.
The meetings, which took place in the summer of 1953, dealt with the controversial topic of the drafting of women to National Service (Sherut Leumi).
The rabbis who called on Ben-Gurion were among the most prominent of that generation:
Jerusalem's Chief Rabbi Tzvi Pesach Frank,
Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer,
Rabbi Meir Karelitz (brother of the Chazon Ish),
and Rabbi Menachem Porush.
The protocol shows that Rabbi Frank opened the meeting by saying, "According to Jewish Law, it is not permitted to draft women to the army or to any form of national service. We request that you nullify this idea… We greatly fear that we will reach a situation, Heaven forfend, that [we will face the Divine consequence of] 'your sons and daughters will be given over to another nation.'"
The protocol later notes, "Silence reigned in the room, and tears flowed from his eyes, and deep heart-breaking sighs were heard from the two great rabbis Meltzer and Karelitz." Rabbi Frank, too, broke down in silent weeping at at least one point.
"In our great love for our Holy Land," Rabbi Karelitz told Ben-Gurion, "we live in trembling and piercing fear to the depths of our soul that possibly, as a result of this law to draft women, we might face, Heaven forbid, the Torah's warning, 'lest the Land vomit you out in your defilement of her.'"
Though the rabbis and Ben-Gurion did not reach any agreement, Ben-Gurion said, "I sit before you in great awe, and I know that I must be careful with what I say, so that I not be as one who 'teaches the law in front of his teachers.' I am always sorry that I did not learn enough Torah, but I know to honor you and your prominence. I know your position and your status and your great influence."
Despite these conciliatory words, the two sides did not reach any agreement on the issue. Ben-Gurion said that there are some rabbis who favor National Service for women, but Rabbi Frank insisted, "The Knesset cannot determine Jewish Law."
At the end of the meeting, Ben-Gurion said, "I want you to know that I, too, know that we will not be saved by the sword…I well know that we have emerged victorious in the merit of [the] spirit."
The papers are said to be in "good condition," with "creases and filing holes," and the opening price has been set at $300.
The auction will be held tomorrow, Tuesday, at Hechal Shlomo in the capital.
you tidbit fraud fake and phony.
ReplyDeleteand did I say embarrassment to klal yisrael and mechalel shem shmayim b'rabim? ok so i'll say it.
What are you smoking if you think this anything more than a polite comment?
ReplyDeleteAnother time Ben Gurion told the Chazon Ish he does not believe in oylam Haboh
Ben Gurion gave the first 500 shkolim to Rav Levinger A"H when he opened his yeshiva in Gush ( or Chevron) after the '67 war.
ReplyDeleteBG had his faults and wasn't the easiest nor most likeable person , but he was probably what Israel needed at its birth. His advisor was the orthodox Rabbi Hazzan throughout his life, and R'Hazzan participated in the declaration of the State on that memorable Friday, 1948.
Whatever you want to believe about BG , don't get your info from the anti-Zionist sources like we did, growing up in yeshiva.
They're beating a dead horse, exaggerating, lying, taking out of context . You have 1st Amendment rights to believe & say whatever you want......You also have the right, after repeal of Prohibition, to sell and guzzle Malaga 24/7... especially from the hating, anti-Zionists sineh control freak SHYT'teh sellers.... and even throw in a yeshivish "klal Yisroel" ,,,, blah blah , freakin' blah blah ... like 807 AM above..
As the '60s rock song said:... " It's too late baby, it's just too late..."...
the Derby
" You coulda had it, shoulda had, but didn't..."
Now go & whine in wine....
8:53
ReplyDeleteOh BG said that to the Chazon Ish?
Who told you that?
Your Fat Rebbe with his eggs from breakfast still on his beard?
And if he said it? so what?
ISIS also believe in Olam Haba!
Hey Naaseh @ 853...
ReplyDeleteSee what I mean by out of context? Actiually BG told him Nasseh Vnishma..
Don't you like these Chazon Ish word of mouth and other stories? He said this , then about this, that and the other thing...
Gee... Torah Shel Ba Peh mamish....
Get over it, Mahn...!!!!!
There's more Torah learning in Israel today than anywhere in the world.....
Derby...
Didya hear the latest hit by Chremzel & Kazrilich'ke ?
"...Midvar Sheker Tichak..."
It's the latest rock craze.. The oylim out of its mind with this here tune....
Actually my rebbe who told me that was very in shape, clean & neat because he followed R' Yaakov Kaminetzky's shita that it is chilul Hashem for a ben Torah to look like a slob. He was a big talmid of the alter Baranovitcher R' Mendel Kaplan ztl.
ReplyDeleteThe Chazon Ish offered to guarantee Ben Gurion a chelek in oylam Haboh for helping yeshivaleit. BG declined, explaining that he doesn't believe in yener velt. But stated he would not mind if he someone wished him to have long life in oylam hazeh. Oylam hazehniks are talmidim of Esav Harasha.
To sum up the BG argument, I'm a friend of someone who has smicha and ran a Bays Yakon type girls' school somewhere in the NY metro area.
ReplyDeleteHis uncle, who passed away last year at age 100, was Rav Benzion Shurin, who wrote a weeky parsha column in the Yiddish Forverts ( Forward) for years and years.
R' Shurin told him the following story:
He had a one on one interview with BG years ago and in conversation mentioned the frum hostility toward the Medinah and to BG in particular. The conversation was in Yiddish. To this accusation, BG replied:
" Nu... Zollen zei alleh kummen duh, und ibernemen de medineh. Ver luhst zei nitt?.....
( Nu... Let them all come and take over the Medineh... Who's stopping them? )
Derby.... End of story...
Theee End....!!!!!
Seems like you have more respect for Ben Gurion than Rav Yoel of Satmer. That is sad!
ReplyDelete"......The Chazon Ish offered to guarantee Ben Gurion a chelek in oylam Haboh ...."
ReplyDeleteYou're insulting our intelligence with this bubby meiynseleh.
Here's a Misnheh:
KOL Yisroel Yesh Lohem Chelek Olam Habah.
Maybe Chazon Ish told him something else? And you guys, clean "n" neat 'n' whatnot made up a meinsele mitt ah meizzeleh??...
"...Oylam hazehniks are talmidim of Esav Harasha...."
Of course...!!!
BG & the rest of the Zionist builders living in small apts.... Golda washing her own dishes as PM after entertaining guests in her 2-room apt.... etc... etc...
CONTRASTED TO:
Olem Hazenikes sitting on million$$$$$$$$$$, running dynasties, in Kings County, Orange County, New JOYzzy, attacking the BGs for being olam hazaniks...
Aye, aye, aye.... Olam Hofach Ro'eesee....
Say, aren't you ashamed to doodle this drivel????
Derby ...
11:09
ReplyDeleteHow could the Chazon Ish possibly "guarantee Ben Gurion a chelek in oylam Haboh?"
Can anyone tell me the answer to this?
I don"t believe the story!
There was once a story about a drunk Bochur on Purim who asked the Chofetz Chayim if the CC can guarantee him Olam Habah, the CC answered only if he swears that he will never utter another word of Loshon Harah"
When this story made the rounds the son of the Chofetz Chayim said that 99% of all the stories about his father never happened...
I actually have the letter where the son writes this, and I am not home now, but I have it at home and if you wish i'll attach tomorrow...
So I don't believe the whole conversation that anyone tells me took place between BG and the Chazon Ish! They are a bunch of balony
I read most of the Stories and quips that people say the Satmar Rebbe Rav Yoel Teitelbaum said.... I have a sefer that is about 125 years old that has the same quips attributed to to other Rebbes...Kotzk etc...
all I know is what we have from the Satmar Rebbe and that is a bunch of live tapes from Parshas Shlach 1967 that calls all the big Rebbes that didn't agree with his SHIT'ah ".... Apikorsim and Minim" that we have and that is 100% accurate...
12:24
ReplyDeleteTell me, my friend, who should I respect more?
A Rebbe that called all his opponents that didn't agree with him ... "Apikorsim, minim, rashaim"?
or should i Respect someone whose country now is the home of over 6 million Jews and has more Torah learned in it since Matan Torah...?
Should I respect someone who orders his Chassidim not to go to the Kotel like Yeravam ben Navot?
Or should I respect someone who took part in liberating it?
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?
It's amazing that we're supposed to believe that rabbonim ALWAYS and ONLY spoke to visitors when there were shleppers around who "heard" such and such. You mean , they never spoke to anybody one on one so nobody could eavesdrop? Ever?
ReplyDeleteAlways gabboim & leidiggeiers around who passed on vertlach to the heimishe like hot farfel on a Thursday night at Mishmar??
C'mon..!!
Derby....
Just overheard that.............................
Sam Hamoves and Dus iz Neas are both saying things that are correct.
ReplyDeleteR' Avrohom Yehoshua Soloveitchik says that not only he agrees with the Chofetz Chaim's mishpocho saying many of the stories are not true but that many of the stories can be picked apart as illogical. Like the story that the Chofetz Chaim had a practice ramp for Kodshim in his living room, R' A.J. said nisht mistaber az salon fun Chofetz Chaim is geven azay groiss.
On the other hand there is precedent for someone to be promised a chelek in Oylam Habo. Rebbi Akiva promised it to the Roman executioner which is why Rebbi Yehuda Hanossi cried that someone gets a free ticket. And it was promised to Yerovom ben Navat who turned it down for the vainest of reasons.
1:14
ReplyDeleteYou are comparing a story from the Gemarrah about Rebbe Akivah to a story from the Chazon Ish?
How silly?
"..... there is precedent for someone to be promised a chelek in Oylam Habo. Rebbi Akiva promised it to the Roman executioner which is why Rebbi Yehuda Hanossi .....
ReplyDeleteYour "precedent" has truth and provenance.
This guy's story here , like 99.9% of others has NONE.... ZERO...
Unless he can PROVE who was there... How many people? And , if each one will tell the story exactly the same...
And even if true.... There's no way anybody can know zchusim of a BG , Moishe Pipp the Ippik, Boorich Zanvil or even themselves to know which one will push one into Olam Haboh...
There IS "precedence" of Chazal's story ( 2, at least to my knowledge) of a meeting with Eliyahu Hanavi, who surprised them when he showed them 2 people who'll get Olam Haboh who most people would never have thought.
Derby....
1:36
ReplyDeletethat story that you mention about Eliyahu Hanavi is in Mesactas Taanis, and the 2 of them were comedians.