Anyone visiting Israel during the Aseres Yemei Teshuva, couldn't help but observe the flagrant abuse of chickens, perpetrated by the chareidim, leaving the chickens broiling in the sun, alive.!
So, even though the prohibition of Tzar baalei Chayim is an Issur D'orisah, they insist on using chickens since this is their minhag, a minhag that the Mechaber says should not be practiced, and the Mishna Berura explains and clearly states that the reason the Mechaber doesn't want it practiced is because it is a "minhag amoirie" a minhag of Ovdei Avoda Zara!
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| See Mechaber, that explicitly says that this Minhag should not be done. See Mishna Berurah that explains the reason of the mechaber and says that the reason is should not be done is because of "Darkei Hamoirie" The Rama actually says that "Vein Leshanois" that people should not stop shlugging Kaporis, but if the Rama would be alive today, he would prohibit it because of the Issur of "Tzar Baalei Chayim" |
Years ago, when I grew up, you went to the market or the butcher and he had chickens for his customers and the chickens looked into the "Bnei Adam" and every one went on the merry way, but now, with bli ayin hara thousands and thousands of chareidim, this minhag of "shlugging kaporis" with chickens, should be totally eradicated...
So the Government cracked down on them, and now they are screaming "fowl"!
Pashkavilim appeared yesterday in the Meah Shearim and Geula areas of Yerushalayim from the Eida Chareidis instructing the tzibur to do kaporos with money this year instead of chickens.
Using the phraseology:
“Because of the wicked government that has prohibited continuing the minhag of kaporos, a minhag handed down from our fathers…. We are announcing one who is capable of doing kaporos with chickens should do so while others who cannot due to the gezeira of the government, should use money. Each person should use 25 shekels and recite the appropriate nussach”.
“Because of the wicked government that has prohibited continuing the minhag of kaporos, a minhag handed down from our fathers…. We are announcing one who is capable of doing kaporos with chickens should do so while others who cannot due to the gezeira of the government, should use money. Each person should use 25 shekels and recite the appropriate nussach”.
The Ministry of Agriculture is being meticulous in enforcing laws pertaining to the transport and handling of chickens, limiting transport to certified vehicles exclusively. In practical terms, this means it is virtually impossible to transport a sufficient number of chickens for kaporos.
While some frum areas have been preparing the traditional areas used annually for kaporos, it is now evident there are no chickens available. Efforts are still continuing but it does appear many if not most areas that usually host kaporos will not be operating this year.
At least one avreich has been arrested after he was found to be transporting chickens illegally. Health officials’ seem to indicate there will be some kaporos stations operating, adding the law will be enforced, including the regulation demanding that the chickens are slaughtered within eight hours of transport.
Tzar Baalei Chaim is Ossur, of course. But The Rem'a (contrary to what you said in his name) says that we may not sway from doing this minhag - V'ein Leshanos, and he then instructs at length exactly all of the instructions about doing this minhag. So the right thing to do if you have the authority, as the government apparently has, is to legislate practicing this Minhag Kadosh in a humane way so as not to violate Tzar Baalei Chaim Cahs V'shalom, but not to legislate to stop a minhag which the rem'a says that we may not alter.
ReplyDeleteTimes today are different than in Ramu. There many more people and businesses abusing the chickens which didn't happen in his time.Ramu says many things which isn't our minhug anymore.
ReplyDeleteTo 12:27
ReplyDeletesee post again , I added the Mechaber and Mishna Berurah....
Dusiznies- Pls The mishnah Berurah clearly agrees with the Rama that it is a Minhag Vasikin. He is just explaining why the Mechaber says to stop the minhag. (Not saying you are wrong on you whole sevorah about they wouldnt say it today but still you misrepresent the opinion of the mishnah berurah)
ReplyDeleteYou write
ReplyDeletebut if the Rama would be alive today, he would prohibit it because of the Issur of "Tzar Baalei Chayim"
1. I suppose you could quote any Rishon or Achron to say what ever you decide that he would say.
2. The Mishna Brura, as the Rem'a doesn't say not to do the minhag. He only gives the reasoning of the Mechaber, but he, like the Rem'a adheres to the minhag, as do many many poskim.
Kaporos need to be done in the proper way, and to avoid any Issurim that could happen Chas V'sholom. If there is no way to avoid the Issurim, it is preferred to refrain from the minhag. Again, just as there regulations for Shechita in most civilized countries, so there need to be regulations and licences for kaporos, but not to be mevatel the minhag. That is not the right way.
People criticize the approach of charedim to attack instead of to discuss in a civilized manner, but here we see that the other way around is no less true. If they would have sat down with Chareidi Rabbonim to discuss the Tzar Baalei Chaim issue in a respectful way without illuding to the desire to be mevatel the minhag, a mutually agreeable solution would easily have been found, and that would be to sanction regulations etc. But the way this is done is nothing but a disrespect to Charedim and Minhagim, even Minhagei Vasikin that have been adhered to over many generations.
2:09
ReplyDeleteI clearly wrote "the Mishna Berura explaning the mechaber" in the caption.
Mishne Brureh's time is the same as Ramu's. Abuse of chickens didn't happen apparently or not as epidemic as today.
ReplyDeleteMany rabbonim today urge money instead of chickens and we pasken not necessarily as a rishon or achron but by the very latest posek. Again, many psakim of the Ramu and even mishne brurah have changed.
To Anonymous 2:22
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't matter. It's not anyone's position to legislate for everyone to be mevatel a minhag, even if some Rabonim hold that way. It is simply a show of disrespect.
2:16
ReplyDeleteI can say that the Ramah if he would live today, would agree with the Mechaber, but for different reasons..
the mechaber because of Darkei Amorie and the Ramah because of Tzar Baalei Chayim...
The issur of Tzar Baalie Chayim trumps any minhag....
I don't know of any minhag that would take precedance over an issur deorisah!
As far as your comment that if
" If they would have sat down with Chareidi Rabbonim to discuss the Tzar Baalei Chaim issue in a respectful way without illuding to the desire to be mevatel the minhag, a mutually agreeable solution would easily have been found,"
This is not a new issue and they did sit with them countless times but to no avail!
read the headline of this week's Zeitung, that says that the Tzaar Baalei Chayim issue was all fabricated by the Zionists!
So can you sit down with people like that?
This was said after the fact of the blow that was dealt by the government.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to imply that I don't think an Issur Deoraiso comes first, but I clearly said that it does. It isn't either or. The proper solution as I am now saying for the third time is to have regulations that are humane. Why is it so hard to have an honest discussion? There is nothing you said in this last comment that truly addresses anything that I said. You imply that I hold different views than I do and then argue against them.
There is a shita by the way that tzaar baalei chayim is only on behayma gassa.
ReplyDeleteTo 2:22
ReplyDeleteNo one was mevatel it, except where tzar baalei chaim is concerned ,, but an alternate way was legislated by rabbonim with whom you disagree.
Many minhagim have been changed or are no longer being practiced.
If you don't torture your chicken then use it. Don't riticize modern day rabbonim who hold different and who know your rishonim and achronim backwards and frontwards better than you.
They certainly can legislate and you go follow your rabbonim.
Raskin Singing Fish says:
ReplyDeleteTo Rubashkin Fresser,
There's also a shita by the way you shouldn't have pity on a fool.
To 6:54
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with those Rabonim. The idea of using money when chickens aren't a possibility for whatever reason is mentioned in the earlier poskim. If someone has the minhag to use money, how dare any rav legislate to him that everyone must follow the minhag that that rov wants. So I HAVE respect for other peoplke's minhagim. Where is your respect for other people's minhagim? Who has the audacity to say that everyone must follow only davka his way and that all other minhagim, even those referred to by the Rem'a as minhag vaseekin, should be cancelled.
Before somebody here gets all picky and nudnicky, please check out Beer Heitevs on Shulchan Aruch & Rama..
ReplyDeleteSo many times he quotes counter opinions with an intro such as ," Bimkomeinu, Bizmaneinu, Be'ereinu, etc... we now do different, we don't follow this custom anymore.."
So relax... even halachos change..
Here's a prime example:
A large neighborhood in Brooklyn, N.Y. allowed an eiruv about 20 years ago, pronounced kosher by some very heimishe talmidei chachamim.. Of course the yeshivish community disallowed it, but that's not the point.
The point is that since Henry Hudson sailed into N.Y bay in the 1600s, no rishon, achron, or rav from any circle, and I mean ANY circle ever allowed an eiruv.
That's changed for thousands and thousands of Heimishe who use the eiruv based on a new interpretation , OR a circumstance that needed to be addressed, which in their opinion didn't exist before.
The rabbonim that allowed it, are very alert and aware of ALL the halachos and ALL meforshim.
The others have a right to disagree. That's Torah.. It's not some kind of cult being run by a team of turbaned men with long beards sitting around a table , chanting 'Um..Um..Um.." in a trance, and giving orders and commands while smoking on hookah...
the Derby...Gmar Chasima Tova to all.. May the coming year be a better one than the last...
Just a smidgen of info on some minhagim that Chazal did away with...
ReplyDelete1) Hired "Criers" by funerals, mentioned in the Mishna and chazal were mevatel it.
2) Fancy coffins..
3) prohibition, known as mashkim megulim, "uncovered beverages," is recorded in the Gemarra and codified by the Rambam as halachah which we are to practice today. But the Shulchan Aruch, who starts by quoting the Rambam, concludes by ruling that this edict no longer applies.
4)Tzitzis worn outside: The Shulchan Aruch rules one should wear the Talis Katan on top of the clothing. The Ari, however, disagrees, maintaing one should wear it under the shirt. This was the custom not only in the Lita including the yeshivois, but wherever tMinhag Lita held sway, with the exception of Chassidic groups. The Magen Avraham takes issue with the Ari and concludes that even the Ari agrees to expose the actual fringes. Although the Mishna Berura agrees with the Magen Avraham, he does not mention the prevailing custom in the Lita not to follow the Magen Avraham. No one in the Lita wore his tzitzes hanging out as people do today, not even the Rabbonim, not even in Radin. This was told to me by those older Rav Zaks in 1975
So this minhag was mevatel and now re-instituted!
To 6:54,
ReplyDeleteChickens are being abused. Period,End of story... Just heard a horror story about how even children abuse the chickens.. Some ( more than one is too much) children,and even as the parents are watching, abuse them.
I'd like to see the same dedication to preventing cruelty as upholding controversial minhagim. We, the Jews, wrote the book on tzar balei chayim, so it behooves us to practice it as an Am Segula, who shows the way to others.
All these toireh'lah are tcheinik hockerei and spit in the wind..
Use the chicken, but how about having mashgichim to watch as they're being Bnei Adom'ed? Or is that just a silly little pain... "Oh, of course, we don't condone cruelty, of course it's a D'Oreiseh, blah, blah , blah.. Let's talk.... blah, blah, blah.."
Yes, how about that???? A mashgiach 24/7 to watch the coops and make sure the chickens are treated humanely??? Fat Chance... !!
Dear readers, you'll sooner hear a knockidiger, shteigidige p'shat with a rishon or 2 thrown into the mix on prolonging a painful minhag ( not all cases) than see a mashgiach temidi at a chicken coop..
the Derby....
First they came for the chickens, then......
Dusiznies
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect your confusing things.
We are discussing here whether a rov or a group or rabbonim can take the authority to forcibly force their opinion upon entire factions of Klal Yisroel, which includes rabonim, talmidei chachom as well as regular yidden who are following a particular old established minhag. We are talking about bullying people around to be mevatel their minhag against their will and against the opinions of their rabbis. This is a total act of disrespect. If it is the opinion of a qualified rov that a particular minhag does not apply anymore, then he may rule so for all of his followers. But how can he force everybody else to be mevatel their minhag, which is a minhag Vaseekin? And furthermore, for the fourth time, if they would treat others with respect then they could at least have allowed the minhag with conditions of certain regulations as is done with any shechita.
To DIN...
ReplyDeleteHow about the chalil used to play mournful tunes at a funeral..? ( See Mishna in Shabbos )
Bring that back... ! I'd rather "hear" a tune or two when my time comes, rather than stuffy, crocodile-teary , speeches. I can hear them already... but you won't get a dime maspidim..
I'm the original Begapo Yovo, Begapo Yeitzei'nick.
I'm spending it all here and now, leaving a zloty or two for family, so don't get all emotional 'cause there won't be anything for you ,suckers.My family will give you "ungahtz"
Never mind Kleenexes....break out the violins....
the Derby...
Hey young bocharim.... Did you know that there was once a minhag for you guys to check out the cute lasses on Yom Kippur, no less... So much for noisy shadchanim who want to know if you stutter when you talk in your dreams.
To 8:32
ReplyDeleteThe Government can be mevatel the minhag, if they feel rightly or wrongly that the chickens are being tortured! The Government can force them to be mevatel this minhag, and I endorse it!
to derby
"So much for noisy shadchanim who want to know if you stutter when you talk in your dreams."
Ha Ha lol
ReplyDeleteTo Rubashkin fresser:
How will you explain the Rabbeinu Bachaya who attributes shiluach hakan to having rachmones on the mother bird, an oif, not even a beheima dahku? The Rambam, if I'm not mistaken, holds the same. True, the gemorrah says that one shouldn't attribute the mitzvah to rachmonus but to gezeiras Hashem, however we, humans, must display pity because Hashem has that middah, his mitzvah of shiluach hakan notwithstanding..
The Bluzhiver Rebbe Z"tl, having undergone painful experiences during the Holocaust, said that it's not permitted to unnecessarily hurt ANY creature, even a bug.
Please see also the gemorrah about an ailment that befell Rabeinu Hakadosh because he inadvertently caused an animal to suffer.
Derby
Shchita is also a humane way of killing the bird swiftly and painlessly. No meforshim necessary, it's as plain as daylight.
ReplyDeleteBefore the mabul, no animal was permitted to be eaten.
the Derby... Cheeezze danishes over sweet/sour chickens ( especially the wedding jam & sweet glue covered ones ... apologies to the caterers ) any day or night.
Derby,
ReplyDeleteTzvay dinim. Sometimes where there is no tzaar baalei chaim, it is still assur for other reasons.
In ikker hadin of tzaar baalei chaim, R' Yaakov Emden even says not all gassos, only the ones that are mature enough to do melocho. There are some Achronim cholek on that to include immature gassos, chayos & oyfos.
The Noda Bihuda says that although there is zicher no tzaar baalei chaim on chayos, it is assur for other reasons.
It is ok for the Bluzhever ztl to makpid on bugs altz being a survivor of the churban. There was another adam gadol who became a vegetarian altz the churban even though he was in America for the entire duration. He said there has been enough killing in the last decade. But when there is no hoyroas shoah, no one is choshesh for the Zohar that speaks of bugs, not even Sefer Chassidim who says on that: al tehee tzadik harbay. There is room however to have rachmonus on creatures more complex than bugs like the Gemara about mice. But all those things are different dinim not under the scope of tzaar baalei chaim.
Dear Brisker... ( You have a R' Chaim's a vort , maybe.. for Yom tov? )
ReplyDelete"...al tehee tzadik harbay..."
Same for you. If kaporas can be done with $$$$, don't look for tirutzim with sforim.
"... There is room however to have rachmonus on creatures more complex that.."
Well, great , then. I'm happy there's room.
The problem with your thinking, and I'm sure you mean well, is that it's a turnoff for so many.
It's a simple case.. An old minhag that has unfortunately gone bad and cruel in so many places and venues.
Enter rabbonim with decency & common sense... Read__ talmidei chachomim up and down but with daas.. and offer an alternative, even ArtScroll.
Speaking for myself, I have no interest in dissecting laws of tzar balei chayim. I only brought examples above to explain the other side.
You're looking into a microscope, and the rest of us are looking at the whole picture.
There is no need for dinnim here. To torture a chicken for the sake of a MINHAG, when Tshuvah, maasim tovim, Tzedakah and introspection is vital, makes no sense.... Hurting a creature for no good reason is wrong, no matter how many memros you'll dig up. It's innately wrong for anybody who has a conscience..And I'm not one of these loony liberals, but what's right is right. .. Better don't shlugg the chicken at all.
Moshiach will not come just because of chicken shlugging ... I haven't seen this anywhere , but show an achron that holds different. I really think the topic has been exhausted..
Anyway, have a gmar chasima tova to you & yours..!!!!
Derby...
Why a turn off? You seem to assume for some reason that I shlog with a chicken. For many reasons I use money. The Vilna Gaon did not really like the idea of chickens by the way.
ReplyDeleteThe "Rubashkin fresser" may be a fellow Brisker who is a shtikel letz. There were a lot of Briskers who stayed away from the arguably fake "Beis Yosef" as well as suspected treifos from Rubashkin and also because of the infamous mishandling of animals there. There is simply no heter to mistreat an animal just because it is anyway getting it's throat slit in a minute. There is a chiyuv to go out of your way to minimize pain. I speak not on my own but from seforim.
If you want to take anyone to task, you can start with the modern orthodox leadership of the OU who covered everything up and then got some yeshivish & chassidish rabbonim to go along with them.
12:13
ReplyDeleteI wish I knew what your'e blabbering about...
but I guess not all wishes come true!
Derby doesn't like kapporos with chickens or any kind of unnecessary pain inflicted on animals.
ReplyDeleteDerby thought that I was advocating for kapporos with chickens. I pointed out he was mistaken and that I actually agree with him.
I assumed that "Rubashkin fresser" was making light of the animal abuse there and at other OU shechitos. So I elaborated on it a bit. There are a lot of rabbonim who have a big problem with Rubashkin & other OU shechitos. KAJ dropped Rubashkin for kashrus violations and generally being fed up with the way the operation was run. They won't publicly admit it but a KAJ employee leaked to the blogs the termination letter pointing out the kashrus violations that was addressed to Rubashkin's father.
The modern orthodox OU bigwigs led by Genack covered up for Rubashkin on many fronts. It was profit driven though they did privately trot out a bunch of false piety that they were worried about chilul Hashem if it was exposed.