The Rabbis of Ger and Belz asked their chassidim to abandon the Yeshivos in Ashdod, because of rocket attacks, according to the report from Be'Chadrei Chadorim.
Following the Psak of the Litvisher Gedolim, Yeshivas Grodno also vacated the Yeshivah in Ashdod.
The Hesdor Yeshivot will not abandon their brethern. They will remain to support their brethern.
May G-D and their Torah protect them.
Following the Psak of the Litvisher Gedolim, Yeshivas Grodno also vacated the Yeshivah in Ashdod.
The Hesdor Yeshivot will not abandon their brethern. They will remain to support their brethern.
May G-D and their Torah protect them.
Is it possible that the hesder yeshivos have bomb shelters but the others don't?
ReplyDeleteAll buildings have shelters, especially schools
ReplyDeleteSeems like a contradiction because they maintained all along that it's the Torah learning in yeshivot and kollels that are protecting the country and Tzahal, therfore they won't serve. Now they're pulling out of the yeshivot in those areas because it's too dangerous , so what are we to believe? They're sending mixed messages and confusing religious people.
ReplyDeleteContrast this with last night's Nefesh B'nefesh Aliyah flight from the U.S. Some are even moving to Beer Sheva of all places.
ReplyDeleteFrom Arutz Sheva_____________
Nefesh B'Nefesh Co-Founder and Executive Director Rabbi Yehoshua Fass said he was inspired by the determination of the new arrivals, who did not delay their move in spite of the challenging security situation.
"The Olim who’ve chosen to make Aliya to Israel during these challenging days are real heroes, and each one of them fills our heart with pride and great inspiration," he said.
Very inspirational.
There is a limud zchus for yeshivaleit based on what happened in Gulf War I.
ReplyDeleteTake for instance the American Brisker oylam that I am familiar with. There were 3 types.
One tiny group was so scared, maybe the mother was scared or the bochur himself, that he did not go to Eretz Yisroel figuring war was imminent.
The next very large group fled as soon as hostilities broke out. Torah Vodaas was where bochurim from all the various branches came to learn until the Scuds stopped.
Another group decided to stick it out but because they couldn't sleep with the constant bombardments. If you can't sleep, you can't learn and learning was their duty. So they went home for peace & quiet.
ReplyDelete".....If you can't sleep, you can't learn and learning was their duty. So they went home for peace & quiet...."
Same 'ole, same 'ole tired yeshivish boring drivel...
Wonderful!!! Learning is their duty.... How about saying tehillim which doesn't require svoros and very deep iyun, just kavonnah at a time like this.
I'm not advocating staying in danger if you're scared, that's not for me to judge. But you think the Tzahal soldier isn't scared , yet puts his life on the line? How about just a tiny hakoras hatov for them from the "Brisker Oylim." from now on... Like a big announcement that everybody should daven for them. Like how about changing the shitta of not joining the draft because learning is s-o-o-o-o-o-o-
important and protects everybody.
And then you guys run like
thieves in the night when a rocket falls because learning is your duty.. Isn't it supposed to protect you? You're hypocrates..
You sound like a nice but brainwashed person. At least you're not as vicious, vile and anti-Semitic as many posters on that hate cyber rag Yeshiva World. Happens, I never go to their site anymore but was just curious tonight to see if there's a change in attitude by the usual hate mongers. No such luck..... same hate against the country and kippa sruga wearers.
]
By the way... did the BRISKER OYLAM notice the brave tzaddikim who made Aliyah yesterday?? Just curious.
Does the BRISKER OYLAM make a Mi-Sheberach for the Tzahal so that Hashem should watch them as they protect your yeshivas?? Just curious.. Briker oylam... Pleeeeeze..!!!!
the Derby
One difference between the Briskers & Satmar is that Brisk has Tzahal in mind during Tehillim when Satmar gets carried away and always has this hang up of trying to bash them. A big problem that Brisk has with secular Tzionim is that the early leadership were choshud on retzicha and the secular Tzionim did kill people for political reasons. Another is the hashkofeh of "koychee v'oytzem yodee". But chas vesholom that there is no ahavas Yisroel for a Yid just because he is a soldier in a Zionist military, especially when they also play a role in protecting everyone.
ReplyDeleteIn the early days of Neturei Karta, before they became completely crazy, they 'thought' that the Brisker Rov was on the same page so they asked him to become their posek. The Rov refused. He said until now you 'think' that I agree with you on everything so that's why you respect me. But the second my opinion diverges from your's you will not listen or even act nicely to me.
YeshivaWorld is not a serious site. Eckstein blocks sensible comments that he does not agree with.
The answer is a simple one,exactly the same reason they don't serve in the army to defend their own families and country,because they are pathetic cowards who would rather have someone else get killed or maimed,that is exactly why they abandoned their brothers and sisters
ReplyDeletein the south as soon as the rockets started falling,they are no better than the proverbial rats who abandon a sinking ship.
CHAIM.S
No need for Chaim to get so nasty.
ReplyDeleteYou really think that the 40,000 reserves are insufficient to pulverize Hamas? And you know as well as I do that the generals do not want a bunch of yeshiva bochurim to swell Tzahal's ranks, especially when they are not needed.
Plenty of Chilonim think the Mizrachi are also "rats" or worse, blaming them for settling in the violent territories. The same argument as Satmar.
Amazing how 'kochi veotzem yodi' is in the Torah only for Zionists. I've heard this for years, especially from bal gavenicks who themselves had a shimish of kochi veotzem and despite that, blamed Zionists for it. When fat rich slobs grace the melave malka and dinner daises at yeshiva dinners after donating million$$$$$ , orthodox or not, nobody is choshed them of saying kochi veotzem yodi. Only Zionists.Only Zionists sin and babble kochi veotzem yodi... forever...
ReplyDeleteAll of us are on such a high level that none of us accidentally ever thought kochi, only Zionists..You see the sick obsession??
Years ago, some magid shiyur and friend of mine originally of Hungarian background but born-again Yishivish Litvak told me that his rosh yeshiva once questioned whether it's permissible to say 'thank you' to an IDF soldier because he might say 'kochi.' I predicted to him that after 120, said RY will be carried to Israel for burial, funeral party will ecsorted by Zionist police and cemetery not disturbed due to Zionists control and protection of it. My prediction came true exactly as I foretold .Not because of prophesy but au contraire, just observing the Yad Hashem the way everybody can, but some refuse.
to anon 7;45--- Don't give any excuses for yeshiva boys. Let them join the draft like the nachal chareidi. They make excellent soldiers, and can you prove that the generals don't want them?
Also, differences between Satmar and chiloni are obvious. Second, most settlers in territories are not Mizrachi, and even if they were, so what?
Satmar wants Israel off the map like Hamas , Hizbollah and left wing chiloni radicals. Satmar doesn't belong in the conversation. You cooked up a soup here that tastes like outdated Mehadrin's sourkraut and Moishe Pippik's never-sour pickles with the 3-4 hashgochas, especially from the wealthy, powerful (no suspicion of them saying kochi) Bedatz..
the Derby.
"....One difference between the Briskers & Satmar is that Brisk has Tzahal in mind during Tehillim ..."
ReplyDeleteShkoyach... They're keeping them in mind. Heaven forbid they should say the word "Tzahal."
Keeping in mind. Reminds me of the Mel Brooks joke about a rich guy telling his buddy ( Sammy, I think) that he'll keep him in mind in his will.
After death , lawyer reads will and it says;
To my aunt who was nice to me... $10,000
To my friend Harry who did this and this for me,... $50,000
To my dear brother-in-law who took care of me... $25,000.
To my fiend Sammy whom I promised to remember in my will.......... Hi Sammy. !!!!!!
Yup.... Keeping in mind, yeah.
I'm telling you----
the Derby , en route to getting some iced coffee and a cigarette... I need a break from this... honestly...
To anonymous 6:57, July 8;
ReplyDeleteSo in all your 3 Brisker cases they all fled and didn't believe that their learning will protect them. Thanks for laying it out so clearly.
ReplyDeleteThe chavrusa of Chemyele ben Frimitchke @ L'chol Happoochis decided as of this morning not to pray in the Artscroll siddur dedicated by Robert @ Evelyn Firtelshtayn in memory of their parents Gedalia @ Tirtza Hingerikker for fear that the Firtelshtayns may have uttered 'kochi veotzem yodi' during the dedication. It's back to the old Tikkun Mayer for us by the Hebrew Publishing Co.
---L'maan yilmedu vee'lamdu---
5:21 am is being dishonest at least as far as the 3rd group.
ReplyDeleteTo 11:49________________ I'm 5:21 am.
ReplyDeleteThe 3rd group used not being able to learn as an excuse to escape and not be mechazek residents who also couldn't sleep and had jobs by day. So they ran away because at that moment of a tzara ,these learning boys felt that learning was more important than helping a fellow yid and showing a Kiddush Hashem by doing whatever they could to be a source of comfort and live by the Torah that they're learning. Who's being dishonest?
Understand that more and more people don't believe anything you guys say.
12:01 pm doesn't get how it works. We are supposed to make certain accomodations for learners even if the rest are more uncomfortable. It says in seforim that if no one is learning, the world reverts to chaos & void. According to what you've been arguing, shevet Levi who were the yeshiva guys in ancient times were a bunch of "dishonest bums" for learning Torah in Goshen which even the Pharoh allowed when everyone else was forced to do slave labor.
ReplyDelete12:43
ReplyDeleteFirst , the Torah explicitly states who is exempt from soldiering in a war and a talmid chochom or yeshiva boy isn't one of them. Check your Chumash Devarim. Very, very, very explicit.
Shevet levi lived among and were spread out all over EY and commiserated with yiden wherever they lived. The rest worked, planted, farmed and went to war when necessary. Moshe Rabbeinu Halevi who gave the Torah went to war. He didn't allow Shevet Reuven and Gad to remain in Ever Hayarden and learn for Yehoshua and the rest of klal Yisroel as they fought the kibush. He ordered them to join in battle, and so did Yehoshua. Shevet levi didn't run from the shvotim territory where they lived to flee to other places.
Anyway, Lilmod velaasos____ that means that you learn in order to do. If someone works al pi Torah then his work is as much valued as learning if that's what he does.
In Pharoh's case, the Egyptians had a tier in society who were priests of avodah zorah. These priests were given a dispensation from working and Pharoh accepted that Leviyim were the equal to his priests. Ancient Egyptian civilization believed and behaved that way.
Dovid Hamelech wore a sefer Torah on his wrist, davened and learned but himself commanded wars. With his ruach hakodesh and almost novi , he could have stayed in his castle and learned.
Shevet Levi went to war against Midian in the midbar.
Lechol Matat Yisrael, says the posuk and Rashi says lerabot Shevet levi.So there are exceptions as you'll soon see.
True, they didn't fight other wars and I'm not against serious learners being exempted, but today without a Bet Hamikdash or urim Vetumim and when all of Israel is under attack ,the younger men should be drafted and help out. There are plenty of older men who can't be soldiers and it is they who can learn to prevent chaos and void. Show where it says that young strong men should be comfortable and learn. Maybe the old ones should sit in yeshiva.
Finally , nowadays , the defensive wars for survival in EY are Milchet Mitzvot, and here no one is exempt. There will always be people who can't serve militarily but are yerei shamayim who can pray and learn. Your policy to set aside lechatchila a segment of youth for this purpose has no precedent in Jewish history. This is a brand new phenomenon.
"the defensive wars for survival in EY are Milchet Mitzvot, and here no one is exempt"
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that only serious learners should be exempt but I do not agree with you about age categories or that it is currently milchemes mitzva.
*IF* and only *IF* Tzahal does not have enough soldiers to defend or even if there is a hava amina for a second that there might not be enough soldiers to defend then it immediately becomes pikuach nefesh that everyone must close their Gemara & grab a gun.
From Nishmas Chaim ________ Chasidic thought.
ReplyDeleteThe Levi'im were the scholars and priests of the Israelites, and provided Pharaoh with a core of intellectuals and advisors. Therefore they were allowed to maintain their own academies/yeshivos.
C. Levi never abandoned the rite of circumcision. The Egyptians abhorred circumcision and maintained that it impaired a man's fertility. When the other tribes became Egyptized and stopped circumcising their children, the Egyptians looked at their subsequent population increase as a natural consequence. So the Egyptians subjugated them in a natural way with harsh labor. Levi continued to circumcise, and nevertheless experienced a population increase. The Egyptians looked upon that as a supernatural occurrence and therefore decided that any attempts to subjugate them would be in vain.
D. Before Yaacov died he commanded the Levi'im to carry his bier, since they were destined in the future to bear the Holy Ark. Since the Egyptians saw that Yaacov had conferred on Levi a special status, the Egyptians also treated them differently. When Levi didn't respond to the first call for voluntary labor, (see below) the Egyptians decided to leave them alone.
E. Furthermore, Hashem promised to Avraham that his descendants would inherit Eretz Yisrael and would also be enslaved in Egypt. (Bereishis14:12-16) Since Levi did not receive an inheritance of land like the rest of the tribes, they were exempted from subjugation.
So to you Anonymous 12:43 , category E apples. When the kollel and yeshiva people will give up their possessions, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, cars and apartments, then they'll be in the same boat as the leviim.
I'll be the first to offer any full time learner who throws all his $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ away, my apartment in Sanhedria Jerusalim rent free forever and will make sure he and his family eats well. I'll physically prevent anybody whomwants to take to the Tzahal, but first get rid of all your gashmiyos, then we'll talk.
Anon 2:15,
ReplyDeleteIt is most definitely a milchemet Mitzvah. What then is it milchemet reshut?
The rest of your post is yeshivish gibberish spinning. Sorry.
Seems like Hesder boys don't spin spider webs like the Brisker and possibly have more emunah and bitochon without yarn spinning..
You obviously never learned the sugyos in Shas of "Milchemes Mitzva". They are a big difference from milchomos which might be a mitzva like pikuach nefesh or some other mitzva.
ReplyDeleteApartments & cars
ReplyDeleteI know it is the "minhag" in Israel that new kollel guys get an apartment gifted to them. In America it is very unusual except from the super wealthy. From Israel the shvers often come to America to shnor & beg to finance these acquisitions. Ask any rov if you are mechuyev to give tzedoka to these shnorrers if you haven't been able to afford an apartment yourself yet. They will all not give a straight answer which means you are not mechuyev. Even the ones that initially say you are mechuyev back down when you ask them why don't they go learn in a Mexican kollel or somewhere that pays a lot of money to learners so that they don't have to shnor.
First I hear that Israelis own cars too.
I think this meshugass is a side issue though that if they are serious learners it does not revoke their right to learn
A pikuach nefesh war such as is being fought today is exactly the same as milchemet mitzvah.
ReplyDeleteWe are at the height of a milchemet mitzvah, a compulsory war, as Rambam taught: "What is a milchemet mitzvah? It is a war to assist Israel against an enemy that has attacked them." (Hilchot Melachim 5:1)
Clearly, the Rambam defined your sugyos in shas without any pilpur and spin.
to 6:52
ReplyDeleteNo, it doesn't revoke their right to learn but it's absurd to ompare themselves to leviim and demand exemtions from the army or at least national service. It's not a side issue, it's THEE issue.
ReplyDeleteFrom Rabbi Dov Begon__________________
Rambam also says there:
When a person enters the thick of battle, he should place his hope in G-d, who saves Israel in time of trouble. He should be aware that he is waging war for the sake of G-d's Oneness. He should muster his courage and have no fear.
Whoever starts to think too much in battle, alarming himself, violates a Torah prohibition: "Do not be faint-hearted, do not be afraid, do not panic, and do not break ranks before them."
Moreover, the lives of all Israel depend on him. If he does not do all he can, with all his heart and soul, to be victorious in battle, it is as though he has shed blood, as it says, "Let him go home rather than have his cowardliness demoralize his brethren...." (Deuteronomy 20:8)
Whoever fights with all his heart, without fear, and his intent is solely to sanctify G-d's name, can rest assured that he will not be harmed and no evil will befall him. He will build a strong family in Israel, bringing merit to himself and to his descendants for all time, and he will merit the World-to-Come. (Rambam, ibid., 15)
Not a word about kollel guys. . The Torah itself doesn't exemt them.
ReplyDeleteHoly War
Rabbi Yudi Englard , Cleveland Kollel, 2003
The Rambam3defines a milchemet reshut as “a war fought with other nations in order to increase the borders of Israel, as well as to increase his (i.e. the king) greatness and name”. Increasing the greatness of the kingdom is not mentioned in the Gemara and the category of attacking a nation to remove them as a threat is mentioned in the Gemara, but not in the Rambam. The Lechem Mishna[8] explains that the Rambam would include attacking others to remove a potential threat under the category of increasing the greatness of the king and hence no need for the Rambam to specifically mention it.
Based on this Rambam and the Gemara, it would seem that a pre-emptive war like the Six-day war, where it was clear that opposing troops were ready to attack Israel, would be considered a milchemet mitzvah. This is because enemies who were ready to attack them posed an immediate danger to Jews. From the Aruch Hashulchan[9] , it would appear that the argument in the Gemara as to the permissibility of killing others to prevent war is referring to attacking a nation without any cause to fear an attack in later years. This opinion is proposed when he states that if there is a worry that they will attack in the future it is considered a milchemet mitzvah and included under Rambam’s category of saving Yisrael from an enemy.
The Rambam[10] adds that only a milchemet mitzvah does not require approval of a Sanhedrin prior to going to war. This (if we followed this) principle would seem to severely limit our options for war in this day and age unless a Sanhedrin was restablished. The Meiri[11] , however, adds this caveat: the Beit Din Hagadol (A.K.A. Sanhedrin) is only required if the nation does not want to go war; however, if the nation (presumably the people of Israel) as a whole wants to go to war, the beit din (Jewish court) is not necessary to wage war.
Additionally, Rav Ovadiah Yosef[12] brings the sefer Panim Yafot that states that any war that is fought for the land of Israel is considered a milchemet mitzvah.
Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, Yeshivat Har Bracha
ReplyDeleteQ: Is it true you said that a gadol ba’Torah (an eminent Torah scholar) cannot possibly say there is no mitzvah to serve in the I.D.F.?
A: Indeed, anyone who says that it is not a mitzvah to serve in the I.D.F. cannot be considered a gadol ba’Torah. There might be a debate between gedolei ha’Torah about the number of yeshiva students who need to enlist; there could also be gedolei Torah who believe that in the present situation, which is not an immediate state of pikuach nefesh, it is better for Am Yisrael that all yeshiva students continue learning, including those who do not study diligently, because in the army they are liable to decline spiritually. And although we believe their opinion is mistaken, the debate remains within the framework of the details of the mitzvah and its obligation. But no gadol ba’Torah can possibly claim it is not a mitzvah to serve in the army, just as it is impossible to claim that a person who saves a human’s life, or settle’s the Land of Israel, does not fulfill a mitzvah. If he does make such a claim – this proves he is not gadol ba’Torah. According to my knowledge, the rabbis who are considered gedolei Torah in the hareidi community, such as Rabbi Eliashiv ztz”l, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztz”l, and Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef ztz”l, agreed that it is a mitzvah to serve in the army, and only opposed compulsory enlistment for yeshiva students at the present time. In contrast to them, members of Satmar who claim there is no mitzvah whatsoever to serve in the army cannot be considered eminent Torah scholars.
The Conflict between Talmud Torah and the Mitzvah of Army Service
Although the mitzvah of Talmud Torah is equal to all the mitzvoth, the basic rule is that any mitzvah that cannot be performed by others’ overrides Talmud Torah (Mo’ed Katan 9a). The same holds true for enlisting in the army. When there are not enough soldiers for Israel’s security, Torah study is cancelled to serve in the army. In regards to the Torah and our Sages explanation (Sotah 44b) concerning the case of a man who had built a new house and not dedicated it, etc., being exempt from army enlistment, this refers to a milchemet reshut (an optional war).
But when it comes to a milchemet mitzvah (an obligatory war), such as a war to rescue Israel from an enemy – “the entire nation must go out to war, even a groom from his chamber, and a bride from her pavilion”. This is also the ruling of Rambam (Laws of Kings 7:4).
We have also found that the students of Yehoshua bin Nun and King David went out to war without relying on miracles, and were not concerned about the neglect of Torah study (bittul Torah). Regarding the statement in the Talmud (Bava Batra 8a) that Torah scholars do not require protection, it is not referring to a situation of safek pikuach nefesh (a doubtful life-threatening situation), rather, Torah scholars are exempt from protection intended primarily to prevent theft. But when the lives of Jews need to be defended, it is a mitzvah to rescue them from danger – and with regards to the mitzvah of pikuach nefesh – it is a mitzvah for the greatest talmedei chachamin to act first (M.B. 328:34).
ReplyDeleteRabbi Alfred S. Cohen
Rabbi, Young Israel of Canarsie; Rebbe, Yeshiva University High School for Boys ____________
Effect on Others ______________
The exemption of boys and men involved in learning Torah from serving in the army has at times aroused much resentment. It is a practice which has been, and continues to be, challenged, not only by secular Jews but even by many observant and dedicated Jews, even by some who benefit from the exemption.
We are dealing here with a very emotional issue. The families of soldiers who daily risk their lives are far from tolerant when they see yeshiva students strolling casually through the streets. There is anger, too, at the rabbis who instruct their students in the yeshiva to stand at attention on Yom Hazikaron2 to honor the fallen war heroes - but at the same time teach their students not even to consider serving in the army. And there is frustration and bitterness in the yeshiva homes as well, where people live in privation all their lives in order to dedicate themselves to the ideal of learning Torah, and yet have to bear the contempt of their fellow citizens.
No one lives in a vacuum. A person not only has to do that which is right for himself, he has to factor into his decision how his actions may affect the group. This is brought out by the N'tziv in his study of Scripture: The tribes of Gad and Reuven addressed Joshua as he prepared to commence the conquest of Canaan, urging him to be strong, and they would fight along with him. Although they had already taken as their inheritance the provinces conquered by Moshe in his lifetime, they had promised that they would fight along with the other Jews until all the land had been conquered, only then returning to settle in their own fields. Now that he was preparing for his campaign of conquest, they renewed their pledge: "Whoever rebels against your word and does not heed what you say, whatever you command, will be put to death. Only, be strong and persevere."
Isn't that somewhat excessive? Should a person really be put to death for failure to obey Joshua? But the N'tziv explains that the tribes of Reuven and Gad realized that if they failed to join the impending battles, it would have a devastating effect on the rest of the Jews. Perhaps these others would be overcome by fear or panic when they saw part of the army dropping out. Thus, had the two tribes failed to live up to their commitment, they might have fatally weakened the people's resolve. Therefore "be strong and persevere," kill anyone who stands in your way, if that is necessary to strengthen the nation.
Also concerned with the effect exemption of a large group may have on others. Rav Waldenberg cites the Abarbanel51 that Deborah joined in the battle against Sisera, even though she didn't want to, only to placate Barak, the general of the troops. She did it only "because the Jews then were scared and frightened of the army of Sisera and his chariots and his hordes... [and she went along] in order to strengthen the hearts of the Jewish people when they would see the Prophetess with them." (Note that Deborah may even have been transgressing a biblical command - it is forbidden for women to wear armor - in order to raise the spirits of the soldiers.)
Perhaps this factor, too, has to be taken into account - the effect it has on the soldiers and on their families when certain people, for whatever reason, do not share in the common burden and are exempt from the danger and the sacrifice it entails.
ReplyDeleteOne who makes up his mind to involve himself with Torah and not to work, and to support himself from charity, has profaned God’s Name and brought the Torah into contempt, extinguished the light of religion, brought evil upon himself, and has taken away his life from the World-to-Come... (Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10)
So you've got all these modern orthodox Leftie rabbis who think they know how to define what things mean in Shas & poskim including big mouth Melamad who has the gall to say that the greatest Torah authorities cannot be considered as such.
ReplyDeleteThis is old news from the Left Wing camp like YU musmach Asher Lopatin who is now head of Avi Weiss's heretical "yeshiva". Lopatin claims to be the flag bearer of the "Brisker" shita and told Rahm Emmanuel he can make phone calls on Rosh Hashana inside Lopatin's shul about Obama economic policy because it has a "din" of pikuach nefesh.
to 10:00
ReplyDeleteAs if "modern' is an abomination.
They are as much capable of defining shas and poskim like your extremist so- called gedoloim who have thousands of sycophants and you're apparently one of them.
Your second paragraph is a rave and rant to which I'm not going to respond because it has nothing to with this conversation.
The modern gedolim are in synch with reality . Rabbi Melamed , whether he has gall or not, is 100000% correct and I'll take him over Shmuel Auerbach, and/or Brisk any day. The modern rabbonim are as big gedolim as the rest, but let's not start the baby fight of my gadol is bigger than yours.
The point is that if you don't want to share a burden because you're either anti-Zionist, or believe in learning above work, or attach yourselves to rabbonim who still think like in the ghetto, then please leave EY and move to Japan where they'll welcome you with open arms. Your shita and shitas's shita is old, played out, farpillpeled against realistic logic and very dangerous because it's a cult, not Judaism.
You have no monopoly in understanding a shas sugya, Rambam or any other meforash . If you think that only you guys can learn then not only are you clueless but arrogant as well. Get out of Israel if you don't like it. Stop causing enmity & chilul Hashem .
According to you, Rav Yosef a"h and Z. Rav Auebach a"h were lefties as well the Rambam , Moshe Rabeinu ,King David, Yeshua bin Nun, Calev, Pinhas,. All lefties. All YOTZIM BTZAVA me-esrim shana were all lefties.
ReplyDeleteRambam quoted in Anonymous 7:55 was apparently an ultra leftie
ReplyDeleteHesder yeshiva boys learn the same Torah as you and stayed. They listen to real gedolim who can define what shas and poskim say. How dare you degrade their lomdos as opposed to yours. You've poisoned the minds of thousands. Whatever happened to that arrogant yeshiva punk, from Rabbi Auerbach's yeshiva who refused call for draft and was photographed sitting on the shoulder of his friends and they were dancing. Wonder if they're dancing today. You won't see a hesder boy ever do that. Shame on you.
ReplyDeleteThe "rant" is very relevant because even YU is embarrassed by their talmidim like Asher Lopatin, Michael Broyde & Steve "gay aveck" Greenberg for distorting Shas & poskim to fit their sick agendas.
ReplyDeleteSo I get it, according to you only YU is allowed to say when someone is distorting, not the greatest Torah luminaries like Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, etc. Too many to list.
Now don't tell me that anyone in the modern crowd holds a candle to them in learning.
I wasn't even talking about YU, I don't even know them. There's a vast array of modern rabbonim who aren't necessarily YU , in addition you picked one or two and stereotyped the whole group. YU exports, as a matter of info, some of the finest and most capable rabbonim in the world. Again, you emphasize 'learning', like they're greater in 'learning.' So what?
ReplyDeleteIt's how learning is applied that matters, like certain chazal even though their learning was great , we don't pasken like them.
But neither you nor I gave them a bechina so it's ridiculous for you to compare as to who knows more than whom.
You have a bias toward shitas that don't work anymore and have caused much machlokas and enmity among Jews, therefore most of them are being rejected by the people. Your shitas aren't working in a positive way, only negative. Your entire 'learning' legabei Eretz Yisroel and religious Zionism is wrong, wrong wrong. EY is here , growing and absorbing millions, a real kibbutz golios. EY is growing in economy, development of its land and resources and mamahs nissim bechol yom. But you refuse to see and acknowledge because you're wedded to a discredited shita no matter how many "gedolim' you'll quote. Hakodosh Boruch Hu wants the medina to grow and prosper despite today's temporary crisis. You rejected what He gave and you and us have no understanding as why He did this through non religious people. Get over it and accept it. Maybe it's a nisayon for us to make baalei teshuvah and make a Kiddush Hashem so that Moshiach can come. There's no point in further debate with you until you see the light. You can learn and learn and learn but your havanah is in darkness. Am Toey Leivav Haym.. Have a good day.
You are conflating things.
ReplyDeleteOnly Satmar holds that the medinah is to always be considered treif.
The Litvish world and many chassidim hold that although the medinah should not have been started the way it was and should not continue to be tainted by secularism we are allowed to embrace it to some extent.
You will complain that Charedim just complain while taking money. Guess what? For those who do you are right! They should not be taking money like that. Brisk do not take any government money (nor do they take Satmar money that is provided to those who snub government money). Rav Schach took limited money but turned down an opportunity to be completely funded.
Many gedolim have said that those who are not learning should be in the army but Satmar aligned fanatics have physically attacked them & maligned them in newspapers they control.
It's really overreaching that you demand all the serious learners be in the army too when they are not needed. This shita is absolutely not discredited. The opposite shita is malarkey.
Sam, a travel agent answering the 11:44 poster.
ReplyDeleteYou think people are stupid. I travel to the Holy Land once a month. Just because the Brisker and others don't take government money doesn't mean a thing. You're getting government services;
Police, IDF, running water, mail,fire dept., roads, other necessary governmental services. Stop talking to us as if we're children in kindergarten or in a circus enjoying your farces and comedy.. You're being misled by your teachers whoever they are.
Reading your other comments here shows your great error, which is believing that some great angels here on earth are the only ones that can interpret a commentator or piece of Talmud. BS !! They were written for the common person even for working people like me. You constantly refer to Gedolim, when in reality it's enough for somebody to ask his local rabbi when has a question. I'm 55 and never heard the term gedolim 30 years ago as it's being pushed today.
Who's a godal anyway??
You've picked on the modern rabbis and here let me tell you something. We always follow the latest posek not the earlier ones when a halachic problem arises. Although it may seem that the earlier ones knew more, it's not relevant at all. The modern talmid chacham and posek is the one we go to, whether he's a Hareidi or YU rabbi. You have some nerve writing that modern rabbis can't interpret the Torah like you guys.
Doesn't matter if the rabbi is wearing a black hat or kipa seruga or a shtreimel, if he doesn't know very much learning he doesn't have the background to be poskening important matters.
ReplyDeleteI don't know where you've been, Sam, but in 1984 I always heard the word gedolim for Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, Steipler Gaon, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, etc.
And going back through the ages there have been rabbis known as gedolim. Some were even known as gedolei hador: Maharsha in time of Achronim, Rashi & some baalei Tosafos in time of Rishonim, etc.
Here's a clue: one step towards becoming a gadol is knowing all of Chazal plus Shulchan Aruch with nosei kelim. That is part of the background that gives a right to posken on very important matters. How many modern orthodox rabbis have this background?
I didn't deny that there is no benefit whatsoever from the medinah. I was talking about outright shnorring that is always complained about. As far as the other benefits it's not like people who are forced to pay taxes are not entitled. And for those who don't pay taxes they receive these benefits just like whichever non-Charedim who don't work and therefore don't pay taxes.
To Anon 4:43
ReplyDeleteyou are confusing Poiskim And Gedolim!
R'Yaakov Kaminetzky wasn't a poisek, R' Moish was.
The Tziz Eliezer was a modern Poisek!
Gedoilim are people who love Jews and have leadership quality and are Yirei Shamayim....
Examples: The Satmar Rebbe was a Gadol, not a Poisek,(but hated Zionists)The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol, not a poisek,
Yes of course, a poisek should also be a gadol...
Unfortunately, most Gedoilim today do not love all jews.
for example... Lakewood hates a Jew that works... My son couldnt put his daughter in a Yeshiva in Lakewood because he has a job.
So all those Roshei yeshivos may be poiskim but are not gedoilim since they do not love all jews.
Many Poiskim in Israel, who I shall not name now, paskened against the Torah, that learning boys should not go to the army, and didn't say anything when these boys threw rocks, like the arabs, on frum soldiers in uniform..those poiskem may be over 90 years old but I doubt they are Gedoilim, because they dont love all jews! They only love Jews that have black hats with 4" brims, fancy glasses and pleated pants.
The Gedoilim today are the Roshe Yeshivas of Hesdor and Mizrachi, they are the only ones who love all Jews ...
and they also know Kol Hatorah Kulo, but if they didn't, it wouldnt bother me, since the poisim who do know Kol Hatorah Kulo do not practice what they preach..
As someone pointed out about Das Torah, it's not enough to know your nosei kelim and all of Torah but one must have Das too. It's comforting to know that you checked out all modern orthodox rabbis and know what they know or don't know.I know 3 in my circles just off the top of my hat that for sure would meet your criteria.
ReplyDeleteYou wouldn't know them because they're not in the Chareidi PR business and have no lap dog fans & media to fawn over them, owing that their talmidim are busy earning an honest living per Torah, and many even are nosei kelim of one sort or another.
But thanks for your clue anyway.
I'm excited about nosei kelim because I'll be doing just that when I leave to the country tomorrow. Hence, I'm a potential gadol but not that I'm bragging.
Imagine that! ----- nosei kelim.
5:05 was posted by the Derby who was so busy nosei kelim that he forgot to sign off..
ReplyDeleteDIN @ 5:04--- EXCELLENT response..
"....As far as the other benefits it's not like people who are forced to pay taxes are not entitled. And for those who don't pay taxes they receive these benefits just like whichever non-Charedim who don't work and therefore don't pay taxes.."
ReplyDeleteYou people hear this pilpul???
He's twisting himself into a salted pretzel to explain shnorrerei chutzi- bechinom, mostly by non- nosei kelim who despise the country they live in.Maybe I'm slow but had to read it twice to TRY make " sense" out of it.
Basically, he's mevarrer the shita of the shteigers who refuse government funding but expect their garbage to be hauled away by the State.
He's not at all bothered that Talmidei Chachomim, chareidim and the rest have an obligation to present themselves a certain way to be mekadeish Shem Shomayim.
He's only interested and worships one thing:
Learning.... Support me and be my nosei kelim. No wonder you went ga-ga over nosei kelim.
Most people are unaware that R' Yaakov was also a posek. Some limited psakim are brought down in some seforim. His mishpocho & close talmidim asked all their halacha shaylos to him.
ReplyDeleteR' Chaim Brisker & the Chofetz Chaim were very excellently similar in all of their facets but they became famous for only certain facets.
It is true that certain "gedolim" today do not behave like gedolim. R' Chaim Brisker actually predicted this would happen a few doros after him!
DIN, I am sorry that your kids had heartache in Lakewood. I know all about that nonsense. It happens to be that what types from Lakewood in some cases at least like to open girls schools? Guys that were not cut out for learning but are too ashamed to "work" so they delude themselves that running a girls school is somehow not working. These clowns do not listen to roshei yeshiva or gedolim, not even the BMG roshei yeshiva.
There are non-Hesder gedolim today who love all Jews even if they are harder to find than in previous eras.
5:43 by Derby.. Forgot to take my vitamin B.. Didn't "carry" the little "medicine holder" with me.
ReplyDeletePuzzle: Check out the synonyms for the 2 words in quotes and what do get?????
Clue: Check out "Here's a clue" in 4:43
Prize: A hand embroidered kippa srugah ...
To Anon 5:50
ReplyDeleteNot only were most people unaware that R' Yaakov was a Posek, but R' Yaakov himself was unaware of it. I davened in his house in Monsey on a monthly basis, and I once asked him a Shaaleh, and he told me, "I'm not a Poisek"
DIN,
ReplyDeleteI know one of his relatives who always quotes him. I have heard psak in his name from all over at least 3 of the 4 chelkei Shulchan Aruch.
(No nosei kelim jokes from the gallery please)
Sometimes people have different experiences. I have found R' Dovid Feinstein to not be a man of many words but have heard he is maarich with others.
I once went to a noted Brooklyn posek with a shayla and he told me he does not answer shaylos on that topic. The rosh kollel who sent me there was puzzled as he had sent others on the same topic who were given an answer.
Please explain how NOT shnorring all kinds of funds from the government is a chilul Hashem.
ReplyDelete10,14********
ReplyDeleteI guess NOT shnorring funds alone isn't by itself and isn't a proble. ,but u mean NOT taking funds but enjoying all the services, not joining the army, cursing the State, throwing rocks, not joining the work force, making demonstrations, ordering mechitza or separate busses, giving unsolicited advice to government , ordering establishments to close on Shabbat, and then coming to America to schnorr, schorr shnorr, schnorr, schnorr. Is that what u mean?
Or do u mean them advertising that they're not taking funds from gov't because of their hostility but obeying lawas and being good citizens but coming to America to schnorr schnorr schnorr anyway because they need charity to survive, disrupting prayers in shuls day and night because of it. Which do u mean?
Did you see the Rambam quote above******
"One who makes up his mind to involve himself with Torah and not to work, and to support himself from charity, has profaned God’s Name and brought the Torah into contempt, extinguished the light of religion, brought evil upon himself, and has taken away his life from the World-to-Come... (Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10)"
to salted pretzel,
ReplyDeleteThey may not take funds for the yeshivot but they're taking funds for themselves and families outside the yeshiva setting. Please tell the WHOLE truth, not parts and bits.
Anyway, they ARE taking services as posted here, so they're taking though maybe not in shekalim.
So pretzel in simple talk it's them saying, we don't want your money outright but give us police, garbage and electricity because we're your citizens.
Only a gemorreh kop could stretch this around like taffee, Mr. pretzel..
Salted pretzel____
ReplyDeleteI live in USA, Don't get government funds, have a small business and not only don't get funds but PAY taxes forever including Yeshivah tuition . By your logic that would give me the right to be disloyal to the American flag,besmirch the very existence of America ,and disrespect the country in general and certain groups or religions I don't like, in particular.
You're too narrow minded to see the views of people on the other side this stuff and seeing what they're seeing in you. You're too arrogant to be bothered about chillul Hashem. which includes situations which are in fact even legal. Obviously, you don't see it so please explain what good is your learning?
You are lumping together all kinds of people with very different views. There is not even any heter to throw rocks for example. And it is too lengthy to respond to your whole hodgepodge of gripes that don't even affect me and my group. I agree there is a lot of bad behavior out there.
ReplyDeleteYou have to know what the Rambam means as obviously you would have to admit there is such a thing as Yissachar-Zevulun.
So are you saying that someone who pays taxes is not allowed to benefit from any municipal service just because he is not a fan of the secular State? Is there some kind of a UN resolution about that? Trying to figure out where that logic comes from
Yissacher-Zvulen is voluntary , not a shita as proposed to graduating boys and girls that marrying a career boy is somehow unacceptable. If you don't think that's going on, you're living on Mars, because it's a severe shidduch problem.I can tell first hand.
ReplyDeleteI wan't talking about law abiding non-takers. Please reread my opening sentence in 10:34.
I'll add that many are NOT paying taxes and doing the things I wrote about. For those who abide and don't take, I have NP with that. Actually, nobody does and nobody has ever criticized that particular group.
By the same token, let's not hodgepodge all Zionists either. As you say, there's a lot of bad behavior out there. That goes for everybody.