The Yiddish Satmar Newspaper, Der Blatt, a yiddish version of Al Jazeera, refuses to apologise for Aron Teitelbaum, the Clown of Monroe, who castigated the parents of the three Jewish martyrs, while the parents were still sitting shiva.
Not only do they refuse to see the light, they are going out of their way and responding to the huge Chillul Hashem with a 4 page commentary backing the fool!
I will loosely translate, my comments in red:
Headline:
A Deluge of False Ideas, Sympathy to "Hisgarois Be'umois" (Antagonizing the Gentiles,) and Feelings of Revenge by the Chareidie World Halted, after spreading the Holy words of Current Events from the Satmar Rebbi
BYLINE
Unprecendent attacks against Satmar, by Religious Zionists and Chassidic-Zionists because of the Rebbe's sin of revealing the true Daas Torah!
Article
The Fiery, short & sharp words of the Satmar Rebbe last week, wednesday, in the auditorium of the Yeshiva Gedoile of Satmar in Kiryas Yoel, had an unbelievable reaction.
This was the main topic in the kitchens of Jews from all denominations.
There wasn't a shul or Chareidishe house throughout the entire world that didn't discuss, review and analyze on the holy Shabbos, the Rebbe's holy words about the grave danger of the pursuit of land conquests of the
of the Zioinists Mehadrin min Ha'Mehadrin, and what that can result, G-D Protect Us!
(that wasn't what the Jews were discussing in the "kitchens" on shabbos. What the Jews in the "kitchens" were discussing was the Clown's foolish and hurtful words to the parents of the murdered teens)
This (being critical of the speech) all started with the reporting of the Rebbi's words by the Non-Religious Zionists Press and then spread to the New York Media and then to the Social Media and to the bungalows and finally to the shuls.
(that's not exactly how it happened! Satmar's propaganda machine had his hateful speech translated into English, and had Vos Iz Naies report it. From there, DIN printed it, and then the Social media and then the general media and then the bungalows!)
The reaction from the Rebbi's holy words, from child to adult was unprecedented, that even Torah Jews with no connection to Zionism, wanted revenge!
What the holy speech did accomplish was that the Satmar Shita was now discussed vis - a - vis the prohibition of voting in Zionist elections, the prohibition of going to the Kosel until Mashiach comes, the prohibition of speaking the profane Hebrew language, Hisgarois B'umois the antagonizing the Nations, the rebellion against G-D, the prohibition of going against the 3 Shuvois" and the great danger of having Religious parties in the Knesset.
(a)Prohibition of voting?
So why are you complaining when the Zionists do something you don't like? If you don't vote, Shut the Hell up!
(b) Prohibition of going to the Kosel?
When in Jewish history did a Jewish sect prohibit Jews from going to the Kosel?
I'll tell you when, those who learned the Daf this week, Mesactas Taanis daf 30, will know that the Jewish evil king, Yerovom ben Navot went one step further than the Satmar Rebbe, he put guards at the border to prohibit Jews from going to the kosel....and being "Olie Regel."
(c)Prohibition of the Hebrew profane language?
Doesn't the Clown's naive Israeli wife speak to her sisters every week in that "profane" language?
(d) the rebellion against G-D?
How about Satmar rebeling against G-D, by speaking against the Holy Jews that live in Israel, and by prohibiting Jews from going to the Kosel and prohibiting all his Chassidim except for his wife, to speak the language of G-D?
(e)Hisgarous B'Umois (Antagonizing the nations)?
So why are you, Mr Clown, allowed to antagonize your Goyishe neighbors, by annexing land to Kiryas Yoel. Why isn't that Hisgarous B'Umois?
(f) prohibition of the 3 Shevuois (oaths)?
We spoke about this many times, the 3 Shevuois are null and void,
1) The Nations of the world gave us permission to populate the land. The League of Nations and later The United Nations gave the Jewish people a homeland. Instead of reading the hatefull "Al Hagilah" open a history book.
2) The nations themselves violated the oath of not excessively torturing us in exile.
3) It seems that Ezra Hasofer wasn't concerned about the 3 oaths since he advocated Aliyah and then went ahead and built the 2nd Bais Hamikdash? Why wasn't he concerned about the 3 oaths?
What's interesting was, that the Zionists media reported the Rabbi's holy words with respect and even nodded half ways as if they agreed with the Rabbi.
(this article is talking about the leftist commie Israeli Newspaper Haaretz. Haaretz, Satmar and the Arabs all agree that The State of Israel should be, G-D Forbid, turned over to the Arabs, so they "half nodded" to the holy foolish words of the Clown in Monroe.)
However, the hate that came from the Chareidie media against the Rebbe was so antagonistic, that we hadn't had such venom since 1967, when our great Holy Rabbi, the Divrei Yoel, the V'Yoel Moshe, z"l, warned that Daas Torah prohibits Jews from going to the Kosel until Moshiach comes.
(Now, I'm confused! "Daas Torah prohibits a Jew from going to the Kosel? Then why are there countless pictures of the Gerrer Rebbe, the Kloizenberger Rebbe, R' Chaim Kanievsky, R' Shteinman etc, at the Kosel?
Why aren't they listening to "Daas Torah"?
Oh! This is only Satmar "Daas Torah"! So, let me understand .... everyone has a different "Daas Torah"?
Ok... My Daas Torah tells me that Satmar doesn't belong to the Jewish people, in fact Satmar ideology, is alot closer to the Muslims than to Judaism....
so there!
The article continues, but you guys get the gist of this venomous words from the Clown's followers.
"Chassidish-Zionists"
ReplyDeleteThat's a new one. LOL!
Wow, he must be really holy because he speaks to god and knows the inner workings of the universe. Boy am I glad we have him in this earthly world to set us straight!
ReplyDeleteThey knew they took a big hit from everybody and now they're digging in their heels because they'd look stupid to backtrack. Must've had private asifas non stop to see if they could limit the heavy damage, obviously they couldn't ,but people aren't stupid. Well, except for his rabid fans.
ReplyDeleteFor those who were born yesterday,3 oaths, an aggadeteh, are NOT brought down
ReplyDeleteas halacha by anyone: not in the RIF, Rambam, SMAG,
TUR, Shulchan Aruch. MORDECHAI or the ROSH.
It's midrashic aggadeteh which means that it's allegoric.
Besides, that it's ONE mann d'omar not a rabim lehalocho. There are other issues and problems with it as concerns Eretz Yisroel today as everybody already knows.Let's move on.
Before some go ballistic, By midrashic I meant of course that it's in Kesubos. Midrashic is a generic term for aggadetes in general.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, we never pasken lehalocho from an aggadeteh, though from kaboloh , yes as per mechaber in sveral instances. I'd be open for somebody showing where there is a psak halocho by any major posek, rishonim and achronim from any aggedeteh in shas.
ReplyDeleteIn 1922, the idea of a Jewish homeland received formal, international support when the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine, entrusting Great Britain with establishing a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration, legislated five years earlier by the British Parliament, was the first time a world power recognized the need for a homeland for the Jewish people; now, that need achieved international recognition.
ReplyDeleteThe Mandate stated that a "Jewish national home" would be established. The Jewish and Arab communities were allowed to run their own internal affairs, and Jewish life flourished in Israel.
On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews soon after. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, established the state of Israel as an independent state, with the rest of the British Mandate of Palestine split into areas controlled by Egypt and Transjordan. Pres. Truman, the president of the most powerful freest country in the world recognized Israel hours after its creation.
In 1949, Israel signed separate cease-fire agreements with Egypt on February 24, Lebanon on March 23, Transjordan on April 3, and Syria on July 20. Israel was able to draw its own borders, occupying 70% of Mandatory Palestine, fifty percent more than the UN partition proposal allotted them. These borders have been known afterwards as the "Green Line".
So much for hisgarus beumos. Now how do the umos of Monroe feel about the impending KY annexation?
ReplyDeleteAlthough Rambam wrote about the oaths in Iggeret Teiman, he NEVER made it a halacha in his Mishne Torah.
Rabbi Chaim Walkin points out in his book, Da'at Chaim, that Maimonides discussed the Three Oaths only in the Epistle to Yemen, but not in his Halachic work, the Mishne Torah. R. Walkin postulates that this is due to the fact that while Maimonides saw these oaths as important, he did not consider them to be legally binding as Halacha, only that they serve as “warnings that these actions would be unsuccessful. Israel was successful therefore it's obvious that the oaths don't apply.
The Jewish people did not return en masse to the Land of Israel, but rather through individual immigration as well as a series of five Aliyahs. Jews continue to individually immigrate to Israel today. There was never a point in history where a majority of world Jewry collectively migrated to the Land of Israel.
It is not clearly established in either the Gemara or the Halacha what precisely would constitute permission from the nations. As such, the Balfour Declaration, San Remo conference, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, and the League of Nations-issued Mandate for Palestine plan of July 24, 1922 is understood as representing permission and approval from the nations of the world. Accordingly, the Jewish people cannot be considered to have rebelled against the nations. This was the opinion of Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk regarding the Balfour Declaration.
All this is now obsolete being thatB":H , Israel is here and growing. The creation and sustaining of State of Israelby miracles makes all these drashim moot . Obviously Hakodosh Boruch Hu wants it and watches over it. It's time to learn Torah of karbonot and bet Hamikdash in earnest , and learn the other drashim after a major shiyur, as an intellectual exercise in Torah., but not as a discussion for psak halacha. The creation of the State already paskened for us.
anon 6:15
ReplyDeleteRabbeinu Tam writes explicitly that we always pasken adagitah unless it contradicts halacha.
Anon 9:25
According to many poskim if the Rambam writes something in in igeres teiman l'halacha we follow it even over something in the mishnah torah.
To be clear: I agree with almost all of the article. I just dont agree with the flippant and wrong answers to the 3 oaths.
The Satmar Rov (R' Yoelish) is entitled to have his own opinion about the oaths.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that today's Satmar takes anti-Zionist meshugassen to the Nth degree. R' Yoelish would not have stood for all these shenanigans & circus acts that we see today
to 10:29
ReplyDeletea) Where does Rabbeinu Tam say this? Which aggedeteh became halacha? Please be specific.
b) Even if he does, he's a minority opinion.
c)The Iggeret Teiman cannot be considered halacha over Mishne Torah . It's only The Satmar Rebbi who held that. In fact, we don't necessarily pasken like the Rambam lehalacha especially if there are contrary opinions. Chabad is the exception in paskening like the Rambam.
d) Because the "real" intent of the author of a passage in the Aggada
is often ellusive, we cannot as often fix a legally binding meaning to
many passages. In particular, if a passage seems to convey something to
us that completely violates our sensibilities, it is likely that we have
missed its real thrust, and therefore do not learn from it. This is the
meaning of "Eyn lemaydin min ha- aggados" [We do not learn from Aggados]
(Michtav Me-eliyahu).
Therefore , if you can show aggedeh l'halacha it would be amajor exception .
to 10;39
ReplyDeleteHow old are you? Where should we start about shenanigamns that happened 50 years ago ?
You're a revisionist because what's happening in Satmar didn't start with the two clowns. They had an uncle. Stop lying.
From Mi Yodea website,
ReplyDeleteRav Hai Gaon, in a more wordy responsa, "הוו יודעים כי דברי אגדה לא כשמועה הם, אלא כל אחד דורש מה שעלה על לבו בגון אפשר, ויש לומר לא דבר חתוך.. לפיכך אין סומכין עליהם.. ואומדנא נינהו." "We know that the words of Aggada are not like halacha; rather, everyone darshans whatever comes to his mind, like saying "It could be", "It's possible"; these are not exacts things... therefore we are not to rely upon them... they are merely estimations" (R' Hai Gaon, Otzar HaGeonim, Chagiga 13)
Rabbi Shmuel HaNagid on his introduction to Talmud in Berachot: "כל פרוש שיבא בגמרא על שום ענין שלא יהיה מצוה זוהי הגדה ואין לך ללמוד ממנה אלא מה שיעלה על הדעת.. מה שפרשו בפסוקים כל אחד כפי מה שנזדמן לו ומה שראה בדעתו ולפי מה שיעלה על הדעת מן הפרושים האלו לומדין אותם והשאר אין סומכין עליהם". "Any commentary that comes in the Gemara that is not a mitzvah is called Aggadah, and you shouldn't learn anything from it except for what comes to mind... their explanations on passages consist of what came to mind for each scholar and whatever seems reasonable we should learn from them, but the rest we do not need to rely upon them."
Rambam "כל אותן הדברים דברי הגדה ואין מקשין בהגדה וכי דברי קבלה הן או מילי דסברא אלא כל אחד ואחד מעיין בפירושן כפי מה שיראה לו, בו ואין בזה לא דברי קבלה ולא אסור ולא מותר ולא דין מן הדינין, ולפיכך אין מקשין בהן, ושמא תאמר לי, כמו שיאמרו רבים: וכי דברים שבתלמוד אתה קורא הגדה? כן! כל אלו הדברים וכיוצא בהן הגדה הן בעניינם, בין שהיו כתובין בתלמוד בין שהיו כתובין בספרי דרשות בין שהיו כתובין בספרי הגדה", (אגרות הרמב"ם לר' פנחס הדיין´)." "All of these things are Aggada, and regarding Aggada we do not ask questions. Are these words transmitted from Moshe? or rather personal thoughts of each scholar? - rather, everyone should study the explanations and according to what seems reasonable he should accept, and these are not 'divrei kabbala' (transmitted from Moshe), and not prohibitions, and not permissions, and not judgments, therefore we do not ask questions. Perhaps you'll ask me, like many others have asked: Are you calling words of the Talmud Aggada? Yes! All of these things are Aggada in their nature, whether they're written in the Talmud, whether they written as drashot" (Rambam, Letter to R' Pinchas HaDayan)
"שכך דרך בעלי אגדה על סמך כל דהוא בונים דבריהם" "That is the way of the makes of Aggada, on the smallest foundation they build their words" (Responsa of Rosh, 13 21)
That is to say, Aggada was intended for moral edification, teachings lessons, etc. It is not intended to augment historical statement or fact about the events discussed. It does not guarantee consistency with other texts.
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down vote
The general view of the Geonim and Sephardi Rishonim was that not every Aggadta is authoritative or needs to be taken literally. Some Ashkenazi rishonim were more inclined to take a literalist stance for much of aggadata. The machloket continues to this day, with many haredim taking the literalist stance.
Specifics: Rambam was already cited. Ramban has a more complex position, but didn't take an extreme authoritarian or literalist view. For example, see his statements about aggadata from his disputation. The Ba'alei Tosafos were more literally inclined, in the more extreme form, they even believed in corporealism.
-R. Yechiel ben Joseph
ReplyDeleteof Paris of Paris Sefer ha-Vikuah ...words of Aggadah, to draw the heart of man ... if you desire — believe them; and if you do not desire — do not believe them, for no law is determined based upon them.
Rab Sherira Gaon 906- 1006, head of the Pumbedita Academy Sefer Haeshcol, Hilkhot Sefer Torah, p. 60a Those points brought out from scriptural verses called Midrash and Aggadah are assumptions. Some are accurate such as Rabbi Judahs statement that Simeons portion was included in that of Judah, for we find it corroborated in the book of Joshua but many are not we abide by the principle, According to his intelligence is a man commended (Prov. 12:8). As to the aggadot of the students’ students - Rabbi Tanhuma, Rabbi Oshaya, and others - most of them [the realities] are not as they expounded. Accordingly we do not rely on aggadot. The correct ones of them are those supported by intelligence and by Scripture. There is no end to aggadot.
A) Within the context of the Three Oaths themselves, Jews can't come up as a "wall" to retake the Holy Land by force.
ReplyDeleteA1) Gradual immigration pre-1948 isn't the wall that is described. What is described here is the whole Jewish people coming back to stage war and retake Eretz Yisrael. This is not the case, so the immigration was ok.
A2) The United Nations granted the Land, the Jews didn't fight to take it back. Now, while War was declared immediatly after Israel declared it's independance is a moot point. It was given by the Nations and some decided to attack Israel, but it's perfectly ok under the oath
B) Under Shir HaShirim Rabbah 2:7, the Oaths are a bilateral contract with the nations of the world. The Oaths are only valid as long as the Nations upheld their part, which is not to overly persecute the Jews. All the persecution the Jews received should have been enough to nullify the Oaths to begin with, but the Holocaust "sealed the deal", so to speak, thus making the Oath non-valid to begin with, making it possible for the Jews to come back "as a wall" to take the land by force (which is not what happened)
Only the sonei State of Zion are bothered by the 3 oaths, which have already been explained, hashed , rehashed and mantratized. Smell the coffee already....... Israel is a fait accomli... Period. Desired by the Boreh Olam and we are privileged to see its miracles....
ReplyDeletePoster 6:06 pm is right... Let's move on already.
Take this little story home with you:
Certain Rebbe said before a certain Yom Tov that halevei Moshiach comes soon. Asked by his chosid, how could it be? It says befeirush that Moshiach can't come before a holiday... The great Rebbe quipped: Moshiach can definitely come. Aye, you have a kasha? Eliyahu Hanavi will answer it just like he'll answer all the rest of the kashes, meanwhile he'll come.
To the poster above about how R' Yoilish would have not have stood for shenanigans, lemme just say that tomorrow is a fast day and beginning of the 3 weeks so I'll respect this period and keep my mouth shut ...... Kol Hamayvin Yovin... Dayin Lechakima beirmiza... But pleeze don't feed us Aesop's Fables or Disney feel-good cartoons.In other words, midvar sheker tirchak. End of story.
Cheers,
Derby, en route to.........